I note that the Dart 16 now has an uprated X version with a decent Mylar mainsail, genneker, twin trapeeze etc. Is there any chance of a 'modernized' version of the Dart 18 before a basically decent cat becomes extinct?

New fittings and battens would be a start!

Anyone listening?

PS Have you seem the new Topper contribution?
Time to wise up UKIDA

I think the TopCat K1 is basically an updated version of the Dart 18. Very similar design + Kite & twin Trap etc.

Cost has to be a consideration for a 'non' development class but where better equipment to the same spec is offered at a lower price then UKIDA have a duty to the class to deliver the best value sailing to the members. 100% with you on the battern and fittings. I though that a new downhaul had been approved, but I was unable to get clarification, I bought and use one anyway along with a wind hawk instead of the piece of ribbon.

Cheers, Tim.

Cheers, Tim.

Hear hear Roger couldn't agree with you more. I love the 18 but against more modern cats its frustrating to say the least. Once those gennies go up with double trapezes its simple good bye, even a single handed Shadow leaves us standing. I do understand it takes an age to change anything in the one design class rules hell they have been taking about a recovery line for I can't remember how long and thats basically a safety issue, but no the rule answer is stick a sea anchor (read tramboline bag) around your neck full of water....!!!
I love the 18 like I've said but maybe sadly its time to move on.

Having been in and out of the Dart fleet since 1986 I have seen loads of Cats come and go. Some have been good but most have been rubbish and I feel sorry for the folk who bought them and lost bundles. Why change a classic proven design which has stood the test of time. The 18 is simple and easy to sail and will always poach!! cat newcomers from monohull dinghy fleets. IMO The strength of the 18 fleet is that it's inclusive and someone with 'not' a lot of money can buy an 18 and compete,

I agree with Ron! I think you are missing the point of one design classes.
The Dart 18 is an ISAF recognised international one design class with a written constitution. This means that neither UKIDA nor anybody else can unilaterally change the class rules. This makes it difficult and time consuming to make changes (and we all agree some changes should be made) but we have to follow the written rules, and at least this means the class wont descend into a cash driven arms race where the biggest wallet will have the fastest boat.
Consider the advantages of the Dart 18 over other newer and possibly faster cat classes:
1) It is affordable to buy and to maintain
2) Simple to rig and easy to sail (but very difficult to sail well!)
3) Strict one design rules mean we are all sailing the same boat on a level playing field - 25 year old
boats can still win the Europeans (Carnac 2006)
4) One of the few classes where boy/girl, husband/ wife, parent/child teams can compete successfully. Too many other classes require a 6'6" gorilla on the wire to keep the boat upright and to control the kite
5) Still the biggest one design cat fleet in the UK and with a great social scene
BOTTOM LINE: DONT CHANGE CLASSES COME TO AN OPEN MEETING AND SEE WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!

I appreciate the strict one design aspects.
But with respect I think its you and others like you that are missing the point.
Compare the Dart with The Laser, the most bog standard of boats at the outset is continually evolving and is subject to the same if not more regulation than the Dart.
Its basic control kit has evolved continually over the years, all with ISAF approval, to the point that a complete basic redesign was undertaken a few years back, and even that is still being improved by the class.
It is also total rubbish to suggest that the basic tweeaks required to the kit of a good basic one design class like the Dart would lead to cheque book sailing or devalue existing boats.
Leave the thing set in aspic as you wish and peopple will go elsewhere.
Your'e burying your head in the sand in you think you have an active class. Take a look at your build numbers over the last years.
Unfortunatly your thinking also pervades to many UKIDA officials.

perhaps just the kite being re-introduced just to make things a bit more challenging and fun . when in club racing its guttin when you see your hard work beating the formula cats upwind ,is taken away as the fly past with kites downwind.even with PY they seem to be so close

Interesting so far, but I don't feel the Dart 18 is quite on the verge of extinction just yet, not with over 70 Darts at last years nationals and numbers having to be limited due to demand for the various international events.

That isn't a reason to be complacent either of course!!

It would be useful to have an update from UKIDA communicated to it's members on what has been proposed by the members for design/spec/modification updates (I feel this should come from the members as we are the people who sail the boats and therefore keep the Dart 18 fleet alive)and the responses to the proposals and the reasons for either accepting or declining.

From a purely personal view I would love to see the cheaper and better battens introduced, a wind hawk to replace that horrible piece of ribbon, a righting line (isn't that a common sense safety issue?)legalized as we always sail with one anyway, a fixed compass, (when do you ever have time to look at the handheld?)and finally the downhaul that was almost sanctioned.

Total cost of that lot (if you went for the Tacktick compass) would be approx £250. Not exactly cheque book sailing and it wouldn't heavily penalise anyone who didn't want to buy it.

Just a thought...................

Cheers, Tim.

Gents

Thank you for your constructive comments. Eight rule change proposals are currently awaiting decision, upon a meeting between the IDA Chair, Manufacturer and the ISAF Multi Committee Chair. These changes are:

New batten type
Updated downhaul
Righting Line
Trapeze Adjuster
Extended grip on tiller
Different end fittings on shrouds/bridles
Mainsail window
All of the changes needed to be agreed by all the other IDA countries and with the exception of the mainsail window, all of the changes were agreed upon.

If you wish to see further changes, the correct procedure is to state your proposals in writing to UKIDA where it will be carried forward via the official channels.

There is nothing stopping you modifying your boat as you see fit for general sailing or handicap events, but remember you're insurance will almost certainly be invalidated.

Radical proposals which change the whole one-design ethos are unlikely to get far. If you desire a twin trapeze cat with a kite for class racing, then please go and buy one with our blessing. There are however around 2000 very contented Dart owners out there world wide who are happy with the design and see the minor changes proposed as merely enhancements to reliablity and safety, not to performance.

90% of new Darts are bought by people who currently own a second hand one. Our customer isn't the type looking for the fastest, sleekest, highest performance boat out there, it is those who enjoy the Dart for what it is, a world leader in value, simplicity, competative sailing and, above all, overall enjoyment.

Lee Davies
UKIDA Fixtures Sec

Hear Hear Lee

Its good top see somebody stand up for Dart 18, just one point though, there are in excess of 7000 Dart 18`s out there.

All these high speed, Gennekered, Mylar rigged, twin trapeze speed machines out there now, and in the past, how many of them get 20 plus at events, nationaly, internationaly or anywhere else, also what is the resale value, the answer is simple.

When a class starts to retrofit go faster kit, it never works. Christ, when you can get 120 sign up to a championship in less than 24 hours, to sail what some are inferring is an outdated boat, I would suggest they have a rethink, because history and currant facts prove there arguments futile.

I think people sometimes forget what the Dart 18 legacy is all about.

I crewed on a Merlin at the weekend...I know it's not high performance (in terms of speed anyway)..but I've decided I'm happy to live with my one piece of rope...oh, and you know where you can stuff your spinnaker...though granted the colours are very nice!

With love from an 8 stone, five foot FEMALE crew.

(aka Mel)

I love the Dart 18 and hope that the fleet will continue to grow as it is doing presently. We all know popularity of a sailing fleet can rise and fall but the fact that the boat is still present in many of the clubs around the country 30 years after it was launched proves that it is a great asset to the sailing world.

It was the first boat I crewed at my club when I'd just left school and I am still racing the boat at club, opens, National and International events now. I have sailed many other types of catamaran (and monohulls) but still get the biggest buzz from crewing the Dart. It's an oldie but a goodie! Simple but true.

The members of the UKIDA comittee volunteer their time (and lots of it) to ensure that the best is done for the fleet and its continuity in the market place and racing circuit. Any changes to the one design do take a long time to get approved but happen in the end.

Correct me if I'm wrong but UKIDA & Dart sailors are probably the only catamaran committee that offer a training weekend to encourage skill development and do this on a voluntary basis. The Teach In weekend has been a success since it first started about 28 years ago. That is a great asset to the fleet and the design of the boat.

If you want to own a Dart 18 and would like to see some changes, why don't you volunteer your free time to help promote the class, encourage new members, increase sailing numbers at open meetings/national events, organise socials when your club gets to host an open and add value to the fleet?

If you don't get "the buzz" from sailing the Dart that the other 7000 owners get perhaps you'll buy something else but please don't forget that the Dart has prooved itself alongside many other fleets despite being a 30 year old design.

See you on the water, or not as the case might be!

Jess

Carry on demonstrating that some of you are in cuckoo land.

I find the list that Jess puts up amazing.
The Dart was firt built in 1976 and as yet still carries its original basic fittings unchanged. It is now 2007 thats 31 years!!!!

Any idea when it might be acceptable to have extra grip on the handle? have a righting line? or change the split metal cleats?
You don't want to rush such radical changes!!!

Mylar mainsails, don't make me laugh!

Dart 7001 noted on the website as built in 1995. Current No 7900ish.
Thats 900 odd boats in 12 years.
Start facing facts.

I sail my Dart, which I love, out of class. Thats because its got fittings that dont risk breaking my crews back when they give way and for safety, I have a righting line.

UKIDA please tell the readers exactly when the proposed changes are intended to be implimented

Sorry that should read Lee's List

Roger

As an ex UKIDA council member I think the rules have been agreed by all the individual countries, however they cannot come into being without a final meeting of the manufacturers, chairperson of the IDA, and someone from ISAF. As all these people are in different countries this may take a few months!

As for your other points - there are horses for courses

I sail a Dart mainly because it provides a circuit of open events with a good (actually better than any other cat) turn out producing good close (well ok not quite close enough to the leaders) racing with a friendly group of people (who when you forget to take all your ropes and blokes sort you with spares (thanks Snelly / Lloydy)). Its a boat where you can turn up at a Europeans without a crew, walk the beach and pick up a "hot babe" like Jess and take her for her first weeks racing without looking like a complete muppet (ok you lot I said "complete"!). Its a boat that however hard the wind is blowing at Datchet, if any other boat is going out sailing then I would be happy to go to (Lloydy please skip this bit!) and that included when I had an 8 stone crew. As for being competitive, most boats have there favoured conditions and in a blow not many boats can beat it in a handicap fleet (maybe why a dart has won the winter warm up at Datchet (up to 40 cats in the past inc Tornado, inter20, F18, stealth, FX and many more) for 4 of the last 5 years. But as I said at the start its horses for courses so if you are looking for other things maybe we can't help.

On your safty points (yes we all do carry a righting line and it is an un written rule that nobody will protest that) the boat may have old kit but in 10+ years of trying (only kidding crews) I haven't managed to break anyone yet and apart from picking up some half drowned french woman in the English channel once haven't really seen any nasty accidents on a dart (saw plenty when they gave us boats with booms once though, hows the head Simon!).

New battens would be nice and helpfull to those starting out but I don't think those who sail the boats well often break them (and a middle fleet person I seem to manage to survive the season without cracking up to much). The equipment however old works, it is just a case of getting used to it, if you are having problems ask someone at the top of the fleet how to do it (they are very helpfull, I ask all the time!)

Thanks for refering to me as a "hot babe" Barry, you big "beefy chunk"!

Whoops, I meant "Beefy HUNK"!!!!!
xx

No, let's stick with 'Chunk'...it's got a ring to it...!

Lee

Barry

So despite all the bull, recently an out of class warning from you i recall, you are saying that at UKIDA events you are all sailing out of class anyway?

So anyone sailing at your Nationals could get rid of half the fleet on a technical protest?

So why not make a unilateral UK declaration and do the same with the other sensible modifications that it has so far taken 31years to come up with?

It never ceases to amaze me, over the years I have heard many people complain about the Dart and its fittings etc etc etc.

In my experiance when a company upgrades thier products, such as Laser and the Dart 16, it usually means it is the kiss of death for that product, and its the last attempt to revive something that is rapidly becoming obsolute.

The Dart 18 is no where near that stage, the class is active Internationally, it may not growing rapidly with sales of new boats, as there is no more aggressive marketing or selling campaigns behind it anymore, but the sales of used boats to new people in the class really has never been better.

Also, another significant fact is you never hear somebody like Gareth Owen, Stuart Snell, Bob Fletcher, Kim Furness or any other front of the fleet sailor complain about the kit, its always some whingeing tail-ender trying to make a name for himself.

Best Regards

Resident of Cloud Cuckoo Land.

God, I love my outdated boat! Not to mention the 'hot babes' and 'chunks' I get to drink with and speak rubbish with at TT's, Nationals, etc.

Some of the speeches I've seen on this topic over the last week have been, in a word, inspirational!

Roger, cheers for your suggestions.

I think what it boils down to is different strokes for different folks. Don't drive a classic roadster if what you really want is the latest BMW M6 convertible - the latter will definitely be faster. It sounds like the rest of us are satified with our Darts.

Can we talk about something else now?

Btw - is it too early to protest Barry re his righting line for Stokes Bay and the Nationals?

Roger - hope to see you at those, but if your fittings aren't class legal, I'll protest you too!!

Happy days!!

Waldi

I am a relative newcomer to the dart 18(ex Merlin rocketer), in the last 3 years I have owned my cat I have shared some of the frustrations of falling into the water when the cr*p trap cleat lets you go at the most unsuitable moment in the whole race. The righting line is a done deal no boat should be on the water without one I had to sail out of the coarse recently to lift a fellow dart helms mast out of the water I agree that we don’t want a cheque book culture but £200 of fittings would transform the boat and stop an 18stone single hander tea bagging as often.
I don’t mind the sails and from my keelboat days will say that an older used Mylar sail has little or no performance gain of the Dacron sail of the same age bearing in mind that most of the darts on the water are older than 10 years old and sail in club events.

Get on the water and enjoy its all about bang per £
And there’s nothing better on the water!!

Just read this lot. Well said Roger. I've also said the same things in the past.

Unfortunately as can be seen from the differing responses from the 'establishment' and the 'newcomers' it is unfortunate that the boat is being allowed to stagnate by the powers that be.

They continue to bury their heads in the sand and there is no logical argument for the inaction. As you point out they go on about 'being in class' then admit they ignore it!!. Where's your reply to that posting Barry?

Personally i've changed my 'crap traps' (nice description Happy but), have a righting line for safety, have extra grip on the tiller (never ever thought that would be out of class) and sail on regardless.

I agree it is a pity that UKIDA cannot see the inevitable consequences of ignoring progress.

Roger, Bob - Please pardon my directness, but do you guys actually sail your boats?

I had a look at last year's TT series results, as well as the results for the 2006 UK Nationals and couldn't actually see your names on there.

I'm not a good sailor, I generally finish mid-fleet at best. But if, like the 70 other regular competitors in the UK, you did compete, you'd realise how challenging and enjoyable it can be to try get the best out of your boat and improve your results with class legal fittings.

Come join us at Stokes Bay and this year's Nationals (or any other TT event), the fleet is always very welcoming of new competitors, I can personally vouch for this.

However, if you're winning the events you do hands down and find it all too easy/boring without the spinnaker and other modifications you'd like, then surely the solution is a simple one: Don't whinge about your boats, sell them (preferably to someone that will use them to compete)and get an F16, F18, Hurricane, Tornado or any other boat with the kit you'd like on there.

Problem solved for you and those who like their Darts can carry on sailing them in peace.

What I dont understand is, what is wrong with using the main halyard as a righting line, works for me.

Except that I cant remember the last time I capsized, I must be good.

Also, I cant remember when I last broke a batten, and I certainly never had anyone fall off the trapeze because the rope slipped through.

I dont have a problem with the tiller grip, or using a standard wind indicator. The sail material is good it makes the boat go fast.

I never get envious of boats going faster downwind because of a kite, because usually they are on thier own as I am usually in a fleet.

I really like the Dart 18 is thier something wrong with me.

Jack Nicholson

I get the vibe here that some posts have an issue with sugested change. let me make this clear the Dart 18 is the boat that I have wanted for years I dont have aspirations to a F18 or the like I want a dart, I do about 500miles cruising every year and race twice a week in summer and weekly in the winter. the only main change that I have made is I have the Laser Kite Kit fitted.
what would it take to get an "Laser XD" type upgrade to the boat without choking the di-hards?

Its not often I comment on the site the but I too have been sailing Darts since the late 80's. I found that hard to believe that when I was just typing, the years have gone so fast. I've been on the UKIDA committee and understand how these people find it hard to get things sorted. All done free of charge in addition to them wanting to go sailing! - thanks guys.

I've not sailed Darts for a couple of years - had a few things to contend with. Rest assured I'll be one of those buying a new boat next year, partying, looking forward to the travel, the friends I've made, the travel to other countries, the adventure of new alcohol in far flung bars.... and seeing Joffan dancing.

Cant wait! and I dont mind the Dart the way it is. I've sailed lots of other things and still not mastered the Dart however outdated people think it is.

Guy (hi everyone!)

Very interesting discussion. Very sad that UKIDA is unable answer the questions asked.
No time given for updates.
It is inevitable that the Dart will not be in production 3 years from now.
I hope the clique enjoys their nationals, and wonders what the other 7,000plus Darts are doing.
580plus viewings of this thread.

Roger,

It appears to me that UKIDA did answer the questions, see posting by Lee.

Just a thought, you seem to have so much energy for whinging about the Dart, why not put some of that energy to positive use. Perhaps you could work with the committee in spearheading the rule change discussions with the International Dart Association (IDA), International Sailing Federation (ISAF) and the manufacturer. Of course, it might be helpful if you joined UKIDA first!

Just to clarify, the number of Views on a thread does not represent views by individuals, but number of hits. So it could be one person who has viewed the thread 600 times.

I remember when the Hurri 5.9 appeared back in 198? and was shown in all it's glory at our club. Well almost instantly out popped all the profits of doom spouting that the Darts days were numbered. Well here we are 20 or so years down the line and while all those hot shot Cats have rotted away into oblivion the trusty Dart is still with us and racing harder then ever,

hi Roger

I object to being called "clique" - it will be my first time in the Nationals (and I have had my Dart less than a year) this year and from the event I have done so far everyone is very friendly and approachable. I have been amazed at how how many young people there are in the fleet and how highly competitive it is too.

As any Dart sailor at Stokes Bay would know, I capsize rather alot and have mastered the art of righting it quickly without a righting line, the main halyard slung over the upper hull with a clove hitch on my harness loop works wonders!

My one concern is that Laser seem to have a bit of a monopoly on sail production (amoungst other parts) and I don't know any other suppliers of class legal sails/parts. There seems to be a large price gap between non-class legal quality sails and the class legal sails provided by Laser which implies that they are getting too greedy on the margins and are less committed to the class. It seems that this monopoly is in danger of pricing good honest folk out of the class and ought to be addressed.

(there are currently no links on the Dart18.com website to alternative class legal sail suppliers)

I have my gripes about the Dart but the pleasure of sailing it far outweighs any petty issues and at least when I come last I know I cant really blame the boat.

James

Hi All

As a new Dart 18 sailor with a fine old second-hand boat, I very much enjoyed reading the threads...Such passion !!!! Very funny....thanks.

Tony (QMSC Surrey)

I have not sailed my Dart competively since 2003 due to reasons which have nothing to do with sailing. It sits in the garden under its cover and I will sell 'her in doors' before the boat goes ( only joking) I am looking forward to the day when I can rejoin the clique and hope that not too much has change on or off the water before then.

Some of this worth a re read?

So what happened to the proposed rule changes?

Nothing then?

Nothing then

The Propoed rule changes are still with the IDA and have yet to be presented to Ian Frasser.I was wondering why Bob Falker and Roger Hampshire are so intrested in this issue as both of are not on the circuit or raceing at a competive level in any fleet?

Surely it's reasonable that ANY Dart sailor should be interested in the rules governing their boat, irrespective of their chosen level of sailing?

I for one, find it incredibly depressing that some perfectly reasonable (and far from radical) changes have been sitting around for nearly 2 years? What are the IDA playing at?

Starting to wonder if I bought the right boat :-(

Bought the right boat ?

Surely your choice of boat would not have been influenced by any decision made or not made by IDA/Fraser in relation to equipment changes

That said I am pretty much sitting on the fence over the rule changes. From a personal perspective we will be doing most of the opens this season and will then take stock of my Dart (old, and well past its sell-by date)and the activities of this and other classes of cat fleet before making a decision on whether to say put or move on to something else

The Spitfire has caught my eye but I see that the French class association has just voted in a 19m2 spinnaker instead of the 18m2 one at present. Therefore to stay competitive thats probably the best part of £1000 for a new sail. I know that the Dart proposals come to nothing like that in terms of cost but it makes me sit up and think of the consequences of going into a fleet where such radical changes are voted through, ie I simply could not afford the cost necessary to keep my boat competitive.

At present, in the Dart 18 fleet, I know exactly where I stand, and must agree that in terms of cost per knot you cant beat it. We were pushing 20k on sunday in a boat that cost me £600 with road trailer trolley and a little red protest flag to hang from the clew

Cheers

Chris P (D316)

Those that are racing at any level need to follow the class rules otherwise your class handicap will be brought into question.....or at least it should be by your fellow competitors!

To anyone that thinks they boat the wrong boat - get yourself to a Dart event and see for yourself. The hussle of a packed Dart start line is enough to make you realise that you've done the right thing. You won't get that feeling on any other cat class....with the exception of the Sprint 15 of course.

Only 28 boats at the Spitfire nationals last year - snore!!!!

I'll continue to struggle with my crappy downhaul thanks!

Hi Jammic.I think your find that it is nearly four years.Rule change in Dart 18 is not easy to do.All IDA Countrys have to be consulited.At the moment they are still talking about with type of Fibre Foam Batten to use & how many wheels to use in side down block.The more wheels the more purchase.
As for Bob Falker & Roger Hampshire they are not UKIDA members,they do not sail the boats,they do not race the boats they not no what they are talking about.Year in year out they are on this forum slaging
the boat of for one thing or an other.
It,s allways the same two Commedians , maybe they should sail togeather.
Jammic the Dart 18 is the Ford Escourt of Sailing.Its a very simple boat,cheap to run,loads of them but very
hard to sailing well.

Dear Marco
Should should show some judgement and check your facts before you write childish personal attacts on an open forum.
More later.

The wind could have been better but I had a great race on Sunday at WYC on my outdated dart.

Anyone else still enjoying themselves?

Dear Bob.I have just seen your post on the.What the class needs now thread.So you are finaly admiting that
Bob Faulker & Roger Hampshire are the same pearson.Some what Childess don,t you think to be posting comments under a falsename.
Just goes to show what kind of pearson you are.