Following the introduction of the first production RM's in 1959 there have been numerous modifications both internall and externally. Some of these were major i.e front grille and wing re-styling, others more minor and unlikely to be noticed.

Whilst many of these changes are described in Ken Blacker's volumes 1 and 2 on the Routemaster, I wondered whether there is a definite list of mods still in existance. The LT museum is worth a try I guess, but if anyone has a list, or knows where I might be able to get hold one one, then I'd be very pleased to hear from you.

My bus number (if any): RM1699 - Eastbourne Regent V 69

The LT Museum may have copies of the various books but there is a lot of difference between a modification which was done to a bus type whilst it was being built (change to opening front U/S windows for example) and repair schemes and Alteration Advices. The garages and works were largely unconcerned with mods but retrofitting of some mods was done under the auspices of Alteration Advices (A/As) like the internal illuminated adverts and changes to the heater ducting to accommodate and the removal of the O/S route number blind equipment.

Repair schemes were introduced to overcome specific issues like the floor plates across the floor bars, treadplates and plates bolted around the flywheel opening and the change to the fixing hook for the heater cord in the cab.

In total I think there were literally hundreds of mods, repair schemes and A/As on the RMs and it’s piece parts, whether you will find them with the LT Museum I don’t know, are there any particular mods etc that interest you?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Thanks Brian. The LT Museum looks the best bet.

My interest in the various modes was really to try and establish the originality of my vehicle. For example, 1699 has the original deep heater intake, brake cooling grilles, offside route number and the revised AEC grille/badge introduced after about mid 1963. So outwardly it's failrly authentic. However, it doesn't have the original lower heater arangement but has insteaed the illuminated interiro advert, and I'm certain there are many other mods that have crept in.

These was also a discussion on another forum about whether RM6 actually has the body B6. It's claimed that it doesn't since B6 is fitted to RM192 that's in Sweden. The reason cited for this is that the body currently on RM6 apparently has mod 67,(that apparently was a slightly later modification).

This may all sound very trivial but I'd like to think that the details still exist somewhere!

My bus number (if any): RM1699 - Eastbourne Regent V 69

Perhaps the best way to explian this is to tell you what were mods, i.e. changes to the original specification done to your vehicle whilst it was being built and which wre Alteration Advices (A/As)done after a period in service.

Realistically due to the body changes on overhaul, it would be impossible for many owners to get their vehicles to as “an built” condition as I have posted before. If for example you have RM 201 with Body 2216, it will have all the mods made to the RM during its construction period and be nigh impossible to ever get to the condition that RM 201 with body 201 entered service.
So to the listed items:
Full depth saloon heater intake. – as built not a mod or alteration.
Brake cooling grilles - as built not a mod or alteration.
offside route number - as built not a mod or alteration.
AEC grille/badge – Second modification made to the design of the radiator grille.

Heater duct horizontal control and illuminated advert – this was an A/A on overhaul for all buses not so fitted.

There were hundreds of other modifications that later became A/As as well. Obscure ones include rubber patches riveted to the back of the driver's seat back panel, a revised fixing for the heater blind cord, the original hooks started breaking off, replacement of the handrail fixings and rear light fixings on the rear frame N/S and O/S pillars with wooden blocks and then all the changes to the flooring and edging on the platform, original edging panel, treadplates and slats, replaced with edging mats and multi slat matting.

The modifications referred to in the B6 saga were both a modification and Alteration Advice. The electrical terminal point above the bonnet on the very early RMs was initially plated over on new buses once it was decided to do away with it as they had on the RT family. When all the panels with the socket were used up later new buses then had a blank panel, which was also a mod. However, buses without the plate over the socket from new would have had this done on overhaul as an A/A which also entailed tidying up the wiring to the socket. However, it must be remembered that a replacement panel, these panels did corrode and were quite frequently changed on overhaul, may have had the socket plated over or no plate at all, so this in itself is not a 100% sure-fire method of determining a body’s identity or provenance.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Brian - many thanks,once again for the valuable info.
To pick up on one of the issues you raise about body changes, I'd note that 1699 has body B1043. It retains at least two of the features of the earlier bodies that were discontinued before 1699 entered service. These are a low level conductor's bell and also the alluminium strip with maroon insert at the base of the curved ceiling panels. I'm sure there are other features that I don't know about. Add the fact that 1699 had a Leyland engine when new it just proves that it would be virtually impossible to re-create its authentic original condition!

My bus number (if any): RM1699 - Eastbourne Regent V 69

Steve

I expect your bus having B1043 has stanchion cups with spacers at the top of the lower saloon seat stanchions as well. Later buses such as RM 1699 had a larger stanchion cup, which had no need for spacers.

What is interesting about the B6 saga as it’s recorded as a proper body swap, i.e. the bus that left Aldenham as RM 6 in 1984 had the original body B6 both by Ian Smith and the same in the Body Swaps book. Now apparently its being claimed on the basis of the socket hole over the bonnet on RM 6 being of a later modification, that it cannot be B6 and that B6 was merely painted onto the body on RM 6 and the real B6 renumbered to another body number. However, this completely ignores that fact that this panel may have been changed on overhaul or due to accident damage and a reconditioned panel from a later vehicle used as a replacement.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

As the person who actually instigated the RM6 / B6 `event` I can tell you why, when and how it happened. But not now! I`m very busy at present and as only a rather lengthy and detailed explanation would set the record straight I`d rather wait for a couple of days until I can do it properly. Keep watching!

Neil
Why is it complex or complicated? All that needs to be confirmed is that the originally numbered body B6 is currently on RM 6 or it isn't.
If it isn't then the body number change theory is correct or am I missing something here? It also seems toi have been a lot more complicated that it ever needed to be, all that needed to happen (or maybe actually happened) was for the RM that had B6 to be overhauled and sent back out as RM 6 with the chassis nuimber on a brass plate "RM 6" in the cab to tie up ewith the log book. The bus that was RM 6 also to be overhauled and sent out as another RM, exactly as LT had been doing since RM 53 went in for overhaul in 1962.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Hi Brian

What you say is what actually happened.RM 6 and B6 were re-uinted. I`ll post the full explantion later.

Thanks Neil

I'm sure we will all look forward to the full story; it will at least put the whole episode to bed and silence the conspiracy theorists once and for all. Mind you there will still be some who insist that the real B6 is in Finland, even it is was, it probably has the A frame off 2217 and the B frame off an RML!!

Just as a matter of interest where were you working when all this came about? I had left Aldenham in 1978 for the 2nd time although I went back a lot of times in my new job between then and 1986 with work to do with the Main Stores, capital asset checks and finally the arrangements for the closure and disposal of the plant and equipment - including investigating the mystery of how the tilt test got nicked as it didn't belong to the Works and should have been transferred to Chiswick or Stamford Brook!!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Now that's gotta be a good story :-)


Claire

My bus number (if any): RML 2330 etc

To be honest I can't remember the details of where it went now. It was certainly removed in error from Aldenham as the Licensing Shop and tilt test was the domain of the Rolling Stock Engineer ( Buses) with buses entering it from the Finishing Line being "handed" over to the RSE after receiving their "tickets".

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

I recall reading an article on the RM as it became the London bus as the RT passed into retirement, in 'LT News' in the mess at Hanwell.

I think it claimed that the RM had had something like 1,250 mods to date and that was around 1975!

Given that in the 70's things were very standardised and all RM's had been overhauled and garage modified, plus regular accident repairs, the NBA crisis which had all manner of things being swapped sometimes between several vehicles in one week, It would be almost impossible to verify the originality of
any one bus.

The RM 6/192 debate is bound to rumble on but there is a sure way to acertain whether RM 6 actually carries body B 6. The Park Royal body number is hand writtten in a number of places on the inner panels. In addition, the RM number is likely to be written on the inner face of the lighting panel above the platform. However,i'm not sure if Arriva will let you dismantle the bus to prove a point. By the way, has anybody checked the 'A' frame number?

My bus number (if any): RM912 & RML 2455

I don't see why the so called mystery about whether RM has B6 will rumble on, there was no need to change the Body number and the the apparent discrepancy with the electric socket on the canopy panel is easily explained by the panel having been changed on B6 due to accident damage or corrosion and replaced with one from a later bus.
Apart from the Registraion plate, there are two real "identifiers" on an RM, the body number and chassis number. The chassis number was the same as the stock number. The A and B frame numbers were largely irrelevant to the chassis number which changed on every overhaul to accord with the log book chassis number, although records were kept of which A and B frames were on which bus. In the case of RM 6 it had chassis RM 6 but what that was made up of who knows.
Due to the practice of swapping the A and B frames within "chassis" and because the unit numbers were changed when the frames were replaced due to accident or wear and tear, the only number that should not have ever changed was the body number, all other items on the bus could have been and probably were replaced and changed over time.

To take Jack's point no RM is an original in either body parts or mechanical units due to maintenance, overhaul and repairs, same as no RT was.
I'm not at all sure that the original body number is officially written anywhere on the RMs, its certainly dangerous to look at scribbled numbers on stress panels or any other panels and assume anything from them given that the RM parts and sub assemblies were so interchangeable. If the original body number was hand written on any RM panel I would be interested to know why it was done and see evidence of it, its not something I was aware of or noticed at Aldenham. Some time back on another Forum somebody said that his bus had been ringed because it has a different bus number written on the inside of the panels, it turned out to be the LT part numbers!!

The other thing to consider is that any bus that had been in for an accident would have it's "current" RM number written on panels going away to the panel beater or taken off for access and stored awaiting the kit of replacement parts. This did not happen in the Body Shop as all damaged parts were replaced from cafeteria racks and the old parts reconditioned in the workshops. We have RT 4595, it has RT 2194 written on all the upper salon lighting panels, all that means is that it was RT 2194 at some time and had a new roof, not that it was originally RT 2194.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

As I mentioned recently and both Jack and Brian have also confirmed, the `underneath` of an RM was designed to be quickly and easily interchangeable to the point that there was never any expectation that any given A or B frame would stay `as built`. Neither would a body. Panels would be changed ensuring that no bus would be totally original for very long. The sheer size of a body made it unlikely to be destructable so as Brian says it`s the one bit of an RM that is most likely to remain fairly constant.
Component parts of the frames could, and were, changed around with ease. RM6 had to have a new A frame not long after coming to V. To keep the documentation legal it would have been given the same number as the one that was removed. So, as I said a few days ago, what was under the bus in number terms was largely academic.

Neil wrote "To keep the documentation legal it would have been given the same number as the one that was removed".
Not quiet the case Neil.
The A frame would as you say have been given the unit number of the old one e.g. A 1234 and there would have been no need to change LT's records of what constituted the "chassis" on RM 6. The chassis number of an RM was the same as the stock number so in this case it was RM 6, and still was RM 6. That is what the brass plate in the cab above the regulator box signifies. RTs of course carried them on the N/S dumb iron of the chassis.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

For licencing purposes the brass plate sufficed. But on one RM I looked at recently the A frames also carry a stamped number in the steel.
This is usually invisible as it is under layers of paint. The easy spot is to look on the outer vertical forward of the wheel on the nearside. After stripping the frame it revealed A2207 on the nearside frame but A2131 on the offside. Neither though, is the bus's fleetnumber!
Again, front boats have a few variations. This one has an overhaul plate dated 21/5/92 but the frames have 12/5/83. The wishbone arms have web fillets whilst others do not.

Jack
I was under the impression that LT's A and B frame numbers are on brass plates and the numbers cast in the steel were the original AEC chassis numbers which may of course have later migrated to LT's frame numbers when parts or the whole frame were replaced.

I'm sure somewhere I have an explanation of the original cast numbers which I thought were RH2RH something??

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Brian, I'm certain that you're correct. The brass plate is the A frame number that's effectively equivalent to the RT CU number that is allocated to the chassis unit on firdt overhaul. The number stamed in the stell on the n/s of the A frame is the original AEC Chassis number and is prefixed as R2RH. It is therefore the only means of determining the origin of the A frame. For example on RM1699 the unit number stamped on the nearside fram is R2RH/1512 - and indicates that the A frame came originally from RMC1516.

My bus number (if any): RM1699 - Eastbourne Regent V 69

I've just been back for another look.
That is right it does have the R2 RH prefix but the numbers are different for each side. Out of curiousity, if 1512 is the frame no. Why is it from 1516?
Are there others with differing left and right hand numbers.
I have to admit to never seeing this years ago, just the brass plates, which is what we went by.

Jack

The AEC numbers had no direct correlation to the RM numbers or the eventual A or B frame numbers, however there is a list somewhere of which AEC units became which LT A frame and B frame numbers, which of course originally tied up with the bus number ie originally RM 100 ahd Body B 100 and Chassis No RM 100 made up of A/B 100.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Paragraph ex 'Bus Monographs:3 Routemaster' by Stewart J Brown.

“The production vehicles had AEC- style ‘chassis’ numbers, commencing at R2RH001 which was a test rig and eventually became RM459. The R2RH code indicated Routemaster 2 pedal control, Right hand drive, Hydraulic brakes. Leyland-engined vehicles were classed 2R2RH, the forward entrance 30ft model was 3R2RH. Suffix numbers were used for the RMLs (R2RH/1) and for the BEA coaches (R2RH/2).”

From the accompanying table: FRM 1 was FR2R001. The majority of original bonnet numbers differ by 4 from the chassis number.

A full listing of the original AEC chassis numbers can be found in Appendix 2, page 144, volume 1 of Ken blackers book on the Routrmaster.

My bus number (if any): RM1699 - Eastbourne Regent V 69