Hi there - Brian Watkinson has asked if I would post the following iten re RM overhauls etc here so here goes :-

I am responding to a number of posts regarding Routemaster identities as there seems to be some confusion regarding chassis numbers/unit numbers/body numbers etc. Like all LT's post war buses, the Routemasters owned by LT (not the BEA examples) carried body numbers in the usual place behind the canopy valance and they also carried chassis unit numbers on both the A and B frames. These were all allocated when the RM vehicles were new and the system followed on from those for the RT family with which classes the system started. Thus RM 5 carried body number B 5 and had running units A5 (front) and B5 (rear). The front or A frame carried an AEC chassis (VIN) number in the R2RH series starting at 001 thus R2RH001 was one of the slave units which were used to simulate service conditions while running behind buses in service and these units later became part of RM 459 with body B459 and cu numbers A459/B459. The exact allocation sequence of these numbers is shown in volume one of Ken Blacker's book on the Routemaster. Most importantly they have no relevance as regards the vehicle identity of any LT Routemaster. The legal identity of any Routemaster resides in the official chassis number as shown on the log book/vehicle registration document and this is always the same as the bonnet number e.g. the chassis number of RM 1354 is RM 1354 and this is linked to the registration 354 CLT.
In the early days of the Routemaster many faults, both minor and major, were revealed as a result of service experience and were resolved one by one. One of the major ones was cracking of the strengthening webs on the A frames or front boats as they were called at Aldenham and Chiswick. After stress tests a change to the front boat was called for and put into effect by means of a remedial programme at Aldenham. To enable this to be carried out five (I believe) new front boats were constructed and these formed a float to enable the normal turn round of overhauled vehicles to and from the works float. At the same time all new front boats were constructed to the updated specification. Vehicles going into Aldenham for overhaul from May 1963 onwards had their front boats replaced by either a new or rectified sub frame and these received the cu plates from one of the ingoing frames. The five new frames carried no R2RH chassis numbers but instead carried just plain numbers as did a number of later replacement A and B frames. The ingoing frames had their cu plates removed and attached to a different unit before going off through the works to be re-united with a body. No record was kept of the correlation between the re-used cu numbers and their corresponding AEC chassis numbers as the latter had no significance as far as LT and the Ministry were concerned.
By the time the RMCs were being overhauled in 1967/68 the remedial programme had ended and the RMCs actually carry the correct cu numbers for their R2RH numbers and these cu numbers also tally with the original body numbers on all the RMCs that I have been able to check physically. The same goes for the RCLs and most of the Country Bus RMLs, the former having received no body changes from their original units at all and the latter only very few after they returned to LT ownership. Now all this means that we can only be sure of about two thirds of the RM/RML body/chassis combinations with regard to their original running units although all the cu numbers are shown in the rolling stock records. Judging by such Routemaster record cards that I have actually seen, it would appear that about half of the RM fleet ended up with body numbers which matched the cu numbers which means that they did not change bodies even though they changed identities. As regards the RMLs I would expect that less than a third changed bodies.
In the specific case of RM 5 the record shows this bonnet number as being carried by B319 after overhaul in September 1981 while B5 carried the identity of RM 47 from June 1980 having got to that position via RM 11 (11/68) and RM 12 (10/75). Later changes appear to have taken place in order to get B5 back to the identity of RM 5 and there is a very high probability that this body is carried by running units that bear the numbers A5 & B5 but this is by no means a certainty. Bearing in mind the remedial programme, these numbers will not be attached to the running units carrying the number R2RH004 which was the original for RM 5.
Now, as regards the appearance of RM 555 as RM 5 at Chiswick works in 1983, this change took place while the vehicle was within the confines of the works and at no point did the bus carry the registration VLT 5 on a public road. Even so, had the actual licensed RM 5 of the time been available to appear it would have been no different as it was carried by B319 at the time so I fail to see where the problem was in changing the identity of RM 555 just for one day. It certainly made my photo's look nice and I was made aware of the deception at the time. It also made my day as I have a picture of RMs 1 - 8 on another occasion when the genuine (current) RM 5 was available.
As with all LT overhaul procedures some interesting questions have been thrown up and most of them have no easy answer and the RM class is no exception.

My bus number (if any): A24 OVL (not a Routemaster) and I only drive it.

Thanks Alan. From previous posts and threads we were aware of the practice of changing the ID of A frames replaced dude to accidents, but certainly I had no idea of the early A frame replacement programme and its part in making a complex system of numbering even more complicated.

It has also come to light that Rolling Stock variation sheets have now been posted on the internet> This was brought to my attention by Maurice Bateman in regard to the RTL staff bus repaint programme of which we share a particular interest, but included in these, and perhaps of more interest to RM enthusiasts is that there was a separate programme of interior illuminated advert fitment to a large number of standard RMs in 1967/8. The Variation sheets that include this, can be found here. http://picasaweb.google.com/rtwbus

We knew about the RMLs, from before, both from Ken Glazier's book but not the standard RMs that were yet to be overhauled and would have been without those adverts for a long time if they had waited for the next overhaul.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Alan

I’ve posted on this topic previously - it's a subject that's fascinating and your posting has added to my understanding of what it a very complex and intriguing process.

You note that by the time the RMCs were being overhauled in 1967/68 the remedial programme had ended and the RMCs actually carry the correct cu numbers for their R2RH numbers and these cu numbers also tally with the original body numbers on all the RMCs – at least those that you had been able to check physically.

From my limited observation I’ve found that the CU numbers of the RMC’s do match the body numbers. However the CU numbers don’t seem to bear any relationship to the R2RH numbers.

As an example, RMC1500 that carries body B1492, has A frame 1492, and R2RH 1380. From Ken Blacker’s book 130 originates from RM1384. This means that upon overhaul, RMC 1500’s identity changed and the body and chassis were exchanged.

In many cases the RM brass plates attached to the top edge of the A frame matched the body number carried by the vehicle. Although there are many exceptions. For example on RM1699 the CU number is A1039 which does not quite match the body number B1043! Incidentally the R2RH number is 1512, that implies the A frame originated from RMC1516.

Are you planning to compile a history of the RM's in the same format as the RT histories that you produced. In theory this would be much more of an onerous task due to the removal and reattachment of the CU plates on the RM’s - I'm assuming it didn't happen with the RT's.

Any further insights into this topic would be most welcome!

My bus number (if any): RM1699 - Eastbourne Regent V 69

Interesting about the RMCs and the cu numbers not tallying with the R2RH numbers. This probably means that the RMC sub frames needed remedial work and came within the remit of the rectification programme. As I said in my last post, I have not checked all of the RMCs for body and cu number matches but those I did check tallied. From the number of RM record cards that I have seen I calculate that about a third of standard RMs retained the original and matching cu and body numbers but this can only be taken as a rough rule of thumb and I have no way at the moment of checking this theory out fully but I hope to have a lot more information in that context in the not too distant future. As I have said before, the big problem with Routemaster histories can be summed up in one word 'privatisation' The records latterly were kept on computer by the fragmented operational companies and the advantage of computers for keeping records has been eschewed so that only current, and sometimes fairly recent, records are kept, which is no use whatsoever to historians. This indicates that new technology is a double edged sword.
I would like to produce a comprehensive listing for the Routemasters in the same way as I have done for the earlier classes but, for one thing, the cu records would not be any more accurate than the unrecorded changes would allow, especially as I do not currently know the point at which the remedial programme came to and end and what vehicles were involved. If this could be ascertained it would be of some comfort in knowing for certain which numbers are correct and which are not. Also there would need to be a cut off point and it would of necessity have to be at the point where the Routemasters came under new ownership as any information after that would probably be quite sketchy. At present I am getting together information from John Marshall's variations and I will continue this as long as John is happy to post them on the internet. I do have another source of overhaul information which I will tap into when circumstances allow and this will reveal quite a few things. In all probability initial publication would be eletronically as I don't think we could ask our normal price for a work that is partially incomplete. There is also a time constraint as I would also like to get cracking on the STL class if and when I get the opportunity so I would like to leave time for this.
Finally, the other website for John's variation sheets is to be found at :-
http://variations.fotopic.net/list_collections.php and these cover variations from 1944 to mid 1963 and the earlier history of the Routemasters can be traced from these.

My bus number (if any): A24 OVL (not a Routemaster) and I only drive it.