24v 20w bc light bulbs made by Ring are available @ £13.80 plus VAT per box of 10 from Swift brake and clutch.These fit RM/RT interior lights.TEL 0191 2734273

My bus number (if any): RML2551

PS the Ring part nos. are R821 for 24v 20w bc
and R811 for 24v 12w bc

My bus number (if any): RML2551

These look like 38mm blind indicator box bulbs to me The glaas bulb is too small to be an interior saloon bulb unless the pictures are wrong.

RM saloon bulbs are 50mm and 22W, RT bulbs are 50mm and 20W

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Don't think these are the correct saloon type either. I've just had a look at a couple of samples and they are the old type stop light, tail light and side light bulbs and also used in destination boxes but not the type used for passenger lighting.

I think Mr.Tim Barrington posted availablity on the passenger bulbs.

We got our RT bulbs 20W from

CEAG Ltd
Registered in England 1597911
Zenith Park, Whaley Road
Barnsley
South Yorkshire
S75 1HT
Tel +44(0)1226 206842
Fax +44(0)1226 731645
email: sales@ceag.co.uk
With fixed postage charge of £12 an order they worked out about £1 a bulb. (We bought 30) Sometimes they can supply from stock, but its best to get an order together as we did some time back.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Hi....Ceag will organise a production run if they are out of stock. Minimum quantity obviously applies. Ian.

My bus number (if any): RM446 and RM765

I use 24v 12watt 50mm BC lamps for the interior lights in my RMs, also from CEAG. They are a lower wattage than used when they were in service but I find the light they provide is adequate and the reduced load on the battery is an advantage.

My bus number (if any): RM471

I've just had to visit a trade fair for automotive restorers and saw some very interesting lighting innovations.
One was a LED cluster unit shrouded in a golfball bulb which was coated inside to replicate a tungsten bulb.
The unit was a edison screw fitting but could also be a standard UK BC

Got me thinking that an RM could use this by the 50mm bulbs being 'lampshades' to the LED unit.
Really it is the same exterior fitting but a different filament ie: an LED.

However the benefit is in the current demand.
@ 2-4w LED can produce a luminance output of 25-30w when diffused in this way.

That means the batteries can provide a lot of light for a much longer period with the engine off but also reduce the load and drain on the batteries when running or idling.
Our trucks are now having all the internal and inspection lights replaced with high output leds and we can also fit more of them as they use so little current.
Good for safety but also for visibility access around the mechanicals.

I really like the idea of LEDs. The speed of the development of the technology is astonishing. I recently saw some incredibly bright 2 watt bulbs at a science show in Cambridge which were designed to replace 35-50 watt halogen units.

Apart from the efficiency the other advantages are cool running, extremely long life, instant lighting and shock resistance. The are ideal for automotive use. The problem is the cost but they are getting cheaper.

I'd like to see us get together to get some white front sidelights and red rear tail/stop lights made with LEDs. The current 12 and 20 watt original RM units are too dim for safety, especially with an old opaque lens. LED replacements could be made to look the same as the original units but would be much brighter and safer when lit. These lights are used in loads of heritage commercial vehicles and buses as well as diesel locomotives of the period so their is a big market.

My bus number (if any): RM471

I think there are several people out there who would advocate that. Safety should never be compromised and as it is something that cannot be seen to alter the appearance of a restored vehicle but can allow a vehicle to see and bee seen better on the road, it can only be a prudent move.

Many classic cars and vehicle restorers are now starting to use them discreetly as tungsten bulbs will start to get rare and expensive as well as the already poor quality of the aftermarket bulbs. As the EU legislation bites a simple bulb failure could keep a vehicle out of use for weeks.

Well worth some enquiries.

Sorry about posting their when I meant there. I've just changed all my computers from Windows to the Ubuntu Linux operating system. The change has gone smoothly and the free operating system & free software is very much faster and much easier to use. However when typing text anywhere in the Firefox browser, spell-checker software makes sure the spelling is right. In this case however I mis-clicked and got the right spelling bu the wrong word!

Back to the subject. I'm prepared to see if we can get some LED replacement units made for our original RM stop, tail and side lights. I've got confirmed interest in 25 units (5 vehicles). I reckon we could proceed if we could get an order for a couple of hundred units or forty vehicles.

I've no idea who we get to make them but would welcome advice and help.

My bus number (if any): RM471

Sounds excellent idea , need to expand the idea a bit to include refurbed examples as well . Wasn't there something on the other channel about this very subject probably a couple of years back . I was under the impression that direct replacement led bulbs are available ?

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

During the latest tube strike in London, Transport for London had a few Routemasters and RTs in service. The interior lighting was golden and warm. Sadly our RCL has had all the lighting fixtures ripped out on the ground floor. Seeing as we have the option, I'd like to fit some round bulbs in. I know these were not originally fitted to RCLs (so I'm told), but seeing we have had to bring this back to the bare metal, and the interior is being converted to a mock 50's Diner, we can afford to use a bit of poetic license here. Anyone know where I can buy the fittings?

My bus number (if any): RCL2559

The RCL is wired for fluorescent lighting and is has electrical equipment that is associated with this method of lighting

RMC RCL and RMA types all had this type of lighting. The short tubes were covered by plastic diffusers.

It uses less current overall when in good condition but can also be easily adapted to use newer output LED and fluorescent lighting.

To convert to the tungsten is going to be expensive and has issues.

!. Tungsten and incandescent bulbs are gradually being made illegal to manufacture, distribute and retail.
2. Original fittings are like gold nuggets to acquire
3. The bulbs always get stolen
4. They can be easily damaged. This could cause issues with a bus in a catering use.

Some years ago a film catering company had to convert it's buses to fluorescent as the food and hygiene authority withdrew their licence. The fittings had to be safe and non accessible even though they were 24v! and must be wipe clean.

Bare bulbs were considered too close in the specified use so had to go.

The simplest cure is to paint the ceilings sung yellow and use a warm white tube instead of daylight.

In many ways the RCL lighting is far more appropriate for catering use.

Somewhere hidden away in the Motor Vehicle Lighting Regulations is a requirement that rear light bulbs should not exceed 6 watts and stoplight bulbs should not exceed (I think) 24 watts.I recall having to learn all this from what we called Chairman Toyne's Bible. It was also part of the syllabus for the Operator's CPC exam.

I put 1.5watt red LED SMD lamps into the rear tail lights. They were far too bright, certainly as bright as the 20watt tungsten bulb in the stop lamp. I've reverted to the (12watt) tungsten which seem fine. The white LEDs in the front side lights are also very bright but I've left them in place.

However in the The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 Schedule 10 says that obligatory rear position lamps have no requirement related to wattage and the intensity should be "Visible from a reasonable distance".

The regulations may need to be changed as modern SMD LEDs are much brighter than the much higher wattage tungsten equivalent.

It might be more appropriate to use lumens instead of watts.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17

There seems to be far too much sucking up to the manufacturers' stylists over vehicle lighting with the attitude that the vehicle has been type approved, therefore everything is hunky-dory. It is getting more and more difficult to see direction indicators (when someone does bother to use them) among all the other monstrous lenses on some vehicles. Unlike until comparatively recently, when there was an easily seen amber lens at the extremity of the vehicle, the current fashion is for the indicator often to be inboard of another lamp; also the whole lot is behind a clear plastic lens. Not only is this so, but very frequently the actual indicator lamp is miniscule in relation to the surrounding fairground of competing illumination.

Roy, I totally agree with you - it's as though directional indicators have been downgraded in importance along with their use - so many people just drift in and out of motorway lanes without any indication! And what about these driving lamps that only light up one side when a vehicle is performing a turn - this could be mistaken for an indication of turn by other drivers if both lamps are on but one bulb is out ! One point is that if rear bulbs are too bright can a stop lamp show up with enough contrast to other drivers ? (ie when people drive around with rear fog lamps switched on in clear conditions).

My bus number (if any): RML2747

A few years back LEDs were not street legal in the UK.
Then they became permitted on HGVs, Coaches and Buses.
Now many new build cars have them.

They are brighter but are now legal. If they are too bright then They can be toned down using a discgel filter
Good for both amber and red lamps. Comes on a sheet and can be cut to size and inserted in the lens.
Very easy on old type RM lenses.

But do agree with the peculiar downgrading of indicator positions.

Extremities and corners were the best place all round cars trucks buses and coaches.

How and why this is being eroded after 50 years of getting it right is a question for sure.

Some cars have repeaters on door mirrors and we are getting them fitted to our trucks as the driver can see his indicators as well when manouvering.

But I do still think that the CAV 'Pig Ear' design was one of the best and versatile designs.

A lens shrouded in Black rubber making it visible in most light conditions, easy to see from all other road users positions and a light that threw the beam outwards while flashing.

Not unique to the RM, RTs and RFs and Fire Appliances and a hatful of commercials used these for many years.

Back to the OP, I contacted ring recently regarding the 50mm interior bulbs and they don not have any. Prior to them taking over Alite, they had hundreds in stock, but that was about 15 years ago and I stocked up with a couple of hundred. They've nearly all been used over the years, so I've just got enough for my current projects and that' it!

roy is right about the old lighting regs, 6 (maybe 8 watt) maximum for side and tail lights, with a certain minimum diameter, and 24w for stop lights.

It is still legal to have a class 6 bus built pre-1968 with a single dip headlamp (as per the RT/RF and some RMs as built, and to have just one tail light. I've had this argument a couple of times with police officers and magistrates quite a few years ago. I won.

It is also NOT a legal requirement to drive round in a 30 limit with adequate street lighting with headlight on contrary to popular belief. this is a "northern" habit which was unknown in London until about the late 1970's with the advent of boy racers. At one time of you drove in London with headlights on everyone would flash you to let you know you had your headlights on!

Which brings me on to the research in period film and TV programmes where you see a bus driving round London with headlights on. It just didn't happen. Even in thick fog the driver would just use the foglight. It said on the switch that's what it was for! And the only reason he used the fog light was so he could nearly see the conductor who usually walked in front of the bus to show him the way.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Delving in the CEAG catalogue, they list a 50mm pearl bulb in the "railway" section with standard bayonet connector, but this is 28v 15w which will give a nice dim yellow glow when working on 24v! Ref 54/39999

When I spoke with Alite many years back, they made 24v 12w bulbs which were used in RFs. A conversation with DK revealed RFs used lower wattage bulbs as they were fitted with twice as many as double deckers.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

With all due respect Roy, you are bang on about accuracy when it comes to period films and it has to be pointed out.

Film and TV researchers are far too young to know the details and in many cases so are their parents, but most are very receptive when advised of practices of the time. They are very keen to get things right as it builds their reputation especially with the new demands that HD brings to TV.

But when it comes to arguing the rights and wrongs of regulations, Whilst it might be the case. Simple common sense and modern practice makes it far more prudent to follow it.

I would not want to drive an RT or RM or any other vehicle on todays roads with just one headlight and certainly not without a full set of working lights at the rear whatever the law says.

When I was at LT if I had to bring a failed bus back to the depot at night or in fog or poor light I would always double check the lights. As It was likely I would be running slow, I would put the interior lights on as well. Even though the rule was supposed to be no in service lights.
Running off route, where a bus was not expected can be hazardous with complacent drivers, I found that with as many lights on as possible, the journey was more fluid and thus safer.

I hated driving those RMs that only had one headlight, it was so dated and other road users were always telling you that a light was out.

Those old regulations are now out of date and some changes have been rather quietly made.

Good bright safe and reliable lighting is every bit as important as brakes that work properly. There should be no compromise and spare bulbs should be carried in every bus - especially preserved ones that may not always be on bright lit roads all the time.

Lumens are now a much better way of measuring the brightness of lights as LEDs and new halogen with low wattage have turned the electric output upside down.

Our fleet now use LEDs in all lighting and the draw on alternators and batteries is significantly reduced, so far this has extended the life of batteries and alternators by nearly 45% over the 3 years that we have had all LED lit vehicles.
That's a very significant cost saving.

When we tested LEDs on the rear of an RM for an owner a couple of years back we made a conversion.
All three rear light positions were converted to stop/ tail. Just like most modern cars.

Lenses bases and bezels remained the same, but wiring was simply altered and easy to revert.

The low wattage makes this possible with no upset to the electrical system

The lamps are brighter, so a red gell disc was inserted into each lens. The kind of stuff film lighting and photographers use. This kept the red intensity but reduced the brightness down a bit. But the difference is very good. LEDs do dull down after use but it will take a long time with low use.
The tail lights are very visible but the additional stop lights make a massive difference and the driver/owner says he feels so much safer on the road

If assumed both to be night time, then these two pictures illustrate how London buses used to be lit at night.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/londonbusbreh1912/12351409185/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/12334851735/in/photolist-jMZkFv-jN1qYv-jN1w7r-jN2J1L-jN14VP-jMZRE6-jN1wDP-jN1q2R-jN114v-jN15mt-jMZAZX-jMZ44c-jMZxRc-jMZbpp-jMZ4v4-jN14vv-jN2ZE1-jMZYx4-jN2uhU-jN1nSk-jMZbXP-jMZwkg-jN2giY-jMZLaP-jN2Tru-jN2fN9-jMZnM4-jMZ3tz-jN2iDu-jN314s-jMZjxZ-jMZUUn-jN2JAy-jN2wYq-jN2C5s-jN2spL-jN2Y6Q-jN1fsa-jN13UF-jN2XG3-jMZ5s4-jN2gNq-jN17mR-jMZ6o2-jN2M13-jN1c9r-jMZtXk-jN2jWE-jN2dVw-jMZwP2-jMZNSc

I raised the single headlamp being still allowed some time ago. Roy's take on London driving, headlamps not needed in illuminated streets etc is exactly right. That said decent lighting is needed where I live so double dip lighting is a must but it is not difficult to modify the wiring with a single hidden switch to select double dip or original light operation with the latter being used for those times you really want authenticity (and if you are keeping the radio switch for a later period look, it can be used as a headlamp "flash" switch).

If you do have single headlamp operation, it would be wise to keep a copy of the regs with you to support your argument. I had control of a Peterbilt exhibition vehicle for a number of years. No MOT, No road speed limiter (100mph plus), no HGV requirement. We were regularly pulled for all sorts of issues and carried a pile of paperwork including VOSA, DVLA and solicitors letters to back us up.


David

My bus number (if any): RML2276 M1001 T806