Slowly getting to grips with owning a routemaster. Some general questions please.

1. Fuel gauge? Do they all lack a fuel gauge and is there a standard solution, kit or whatever?

2. Insurance. Are there any companies you can recommend please?

3. It had new injectors and fuel pump installed, which the garage claims has it running on all six at the moment. It pulls away well, but blows blue smoke, especially when starting. This short video can give you an example, if you can wade through the introduction, you'll see it running. Advice gratefully received.

See inside the Kinder Routemaster Bus & watch it in Action!

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

Hi Robert

1. I expect some of the other contributors can suggest a kit but I just use a dipstick made from a bit of dowel

2. There are a few companies offering cover but I use Rigton Insurance - www.rigtoninsurance.co.uk/. You can also get it from Towergate - www.towergateinsurance.co.uk- and, surprisingly, the NFU - www.nfumutual.co.uk .

3. I suspect the blue smoke is just lack of use and worn rings - should clear after you have been going for a while - mine does it. Again others may know better...

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Thank you Brian.

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

I used a length of 15mm copper pipe carefully bent to go through the aperture and rest on the bottom of the tank. The pipe was marked with paint after checking the size of the tank, this makes a pretty accurate gauge. Mind you an electronic sensor could be fitted into the top of the tank, no moving parts and fuel gauge in the cab. As Brian has said the smoke on starting and for the first short while is probably engine wear, valve stem seals etc. However we have Cummins engines, is yours fitted with AEC.

My bus number (if any): RML2335

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

It would seem to have an AEC engine, which do smoke and do burn oil, but if it smokes as much on the road, as can be seen on the video when reversing, and the engine had warmed up fully, then futher investigation is certainly needed. This appears to be a serious volume of smoke and probably a MOT failure. Why did it have a "new" pump and "new" injectors fitted? These items are not available new - merely overhauled; a lot depends on the quality of such overhaul.Was it smoking badly before? Is that why they were replaced?
It is however quite possible that the vehicle has had a problem and polluted the exhaust system with either oil or diesel and with use this will burn off.
Do you have an engine oil dipstick? if topping up is hit and miss and you are uncertain of the true engine oil level you are risking engine damage as much if it is overfull as if it is under. Seriously Overfull will produce the volume of smoke seen, but you must not assume that this is the cause without proper investigations being carried out.
The report from the garage that "it is running on all six at the moment" sounds defensive, if that is a quote. Are they hiding their lack of knowledge?
What County (not asking for anything more specific as one has to watch out for souvenir hunters) are you keeping the bus in? that answer would enable you to be put in touch with more knowledgeable people.
The bus appears to have no window behind the driver, which would enable you to video what can be seen via the drivers mirror, coming out of the exhaust pipe when the bus is moving. That could then be posted as a link.

It did stop smoking considerably once it ran a bit. See the shot in the petrol station. The engine is running there. I didn't dare turn it off, as it was stubborn starting.

The camera man missed my parking bit, which I was quite pleased about, with only a few inches to spare, so he ran the video backwards of the bus pulling out ;-) . That smoke you see when its backing in, is at the very start of the journey.

It is near Milton Keynes. The same people service the PIMMS buses.

Pimms Routemaster

Do you know about them? The people we won the bus from, White Stuff, had the repairs done because the garage where it is serviced said it was running on 4 cylinders and they wanted us to get it in good order. The tork feels good. It has a real kick and pulls out well. Just takes a while to start. But it did start.

Not sure about the dip stick. I seem to recall there is one. The window opens behind the driver. Its one of those special issue jobs. Will do a video as you suggest, when we get the chance.

I was meaning to ask, does it run on 12 volts, or 24? Any tips on installing a cigarette lighter to plug in my Sat Nav?

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

It is 24 volt Insulated Return, which means that there are two wires to everything. Nothing must earth to the body or chassis. Unless you are totally confident in identifying a fused supply of sufficient capacity, how to connect the items negative return and how to isolate the item's own casing earth (return),I would suggest you get your planned auxiliaries supplied and fitted by an auto electrician; a mistake could cause a fire. It is very possible that an incorrectly wired appliance may still work.
Unless the temperature is below about 5c, AECs are normally very good starters, less than say 7 or 8 seconds cranking for a stone cold engine. Below that temperature old age will be a factor.
If it was running on 4 then it will likely have polluted the exhaust system and should get better with use. Sounds as if the garage has your best interests at heart.

It is definitely not starting in 7 seconds. More like a few minutes solid cranking. I figured it must be 24 volt because the starter action didn't drain the batteries. It appeared to be turning over sort of semi starting, with the starter's assistance after a few minutes, and then it finally kicked in.

There is a bank of batteries, I recall seeing. Like I explained, it is a distance away, hard for me to check, so hope you don't mind me asking, is the battery bank made out of 12 volt or 24 volt batteries?

My next question will depend on the answer to this one. Thanks.

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as a 24 volt automotive battery. You will haveone of several options fitted and without being able to check the connections it is not possible to determine which. it also depends on how many batteries are present in the carrier. As youmention a 'bank of batteries' I assume 4.
1) 2x12 volt batteries wired in series to give 24v output.But no other batteries present.
2) 4x6 volt batteries all wired in series to give 24 volts
3) 2x 12v batteries each wired in parallel, then connected in series to 2x 12 volt batteries also wired in parallel to each other, to give 24 volts output (unusual combination.
4) 2x 12 volt batteries wired in series to give 24v. And two extra batteries which are not connected to either of the above, but are merely present to hold everything in place.

There is something wrong with the engine still, if the temperature is above about 5c then it should be starting a lot easier than you report.

Ther was a discussion on here some time ago "AEC AV 590 timing" which went into some detail. Not all points will be relevant however. One always has to bear in mind what work has been carried out recently and whether that has been done correctly. This theme related to a photograph of the injection timing marks, which appeared to be correctly aligned.
If the bus started more quickly with only 4 cylinders firing than it now does, then this MAY be related to work just completed.
As you report excellent acceleration a simple check of the injection timing would seem sensible. An over-advanced pump will smoke and be difficult to start; it will also probably go like the clappers. Follow that by replacing the flexible rubber pipe between the lift pump and the injection pump with clear plastic hose.This will reveal whether there is air entering the system and causing starting difficulties.
There are many other reasons as you will see, but you have to start somewhere and as cheaply as possible.

Hi Robert,

Your bus definately has an AEC engine or certainly did 12 months ago when the pictures below were taken.

I can give you some advice and information if you give me a call on 07534 904650.

Martin
londonbus4hire.com

My bus number (if any): RML2583 and RM1357

Thank you,

Will be calling the garage, to pose some of these questions. About the batteries. Say I ran two wires, from positive and negative of one 12 volt battery, to the cab and connected it directly to a cigarette lighter plug in, (to plug my SAT NAV in), would you see a problem with that? I'm thinking if I did that with a spare 12 volt battery in the cab, it would wrok, but there would be nothing recharging the battery, whereas from the back, they get recharged. Is there a down side to this I am missing?

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

I would advise getting an auto electrician to fit your power point for the satnav, or at least someone who is familiar with a 24v system ( insulated return ). A feed can be taken from the switch & fuse panel above and to the left of the drivers seat, with an inline fuse installed. You can use your 12v satnav with a converter for 24v to 12v. Do not run wires directly from the batteries, quite apart from not being able to isolate the supply, you would have to take into account any voltage drop and current demand depending on what you decided to connect into the power point in the cab. If you do not have any idea what condition your wiring is in, and if you yourself do not understand 24v vehicle wiring systems, leave well alone and seek professional advice.

My bus number (if any): RML2335

I agree with Ed, you should leave this to an auto electrician.1) The cigarette lighter will earth through its casing. 2) most voltage droppers earth through their casings.3)you will need expert advice regarding any aerial for the satnav; this must not leak electrical current through its mounting. 4)Do not connect anything directly to the batteries.5) even if you were to have a 12v battery in the cab,which would be very unwise, (fire,fumes and explosion risk)you would still have to ensure that the mounting of everything was completely electrically insulated from the cab/body/chassis.
Although it was common for commercial vehicles to have batteries, fuel filters, air cleaners and screenwash bottles mounted in the cab up until the 1980s, none of these belong in the cab nowadays for the reasons mentioned.
I wish to fit capillary tube oil pressure and coolant temperature gauges to a couple of vehicles, which in itself is not a problem, but the night-time illumination arrangements will require some considerable care.

Chaps

Insulated return.

As an Electrical Engineer and an ex London Transport Bus Electrician, I would be interested to know why the obsession with insulated return persists. Fuel tankers had (have?)this wiring system because it is does reduce the risk of fire but only if regular checks are carried out and how many of us actually do it. In fact hang on 2 minutes.......................

Right that is mine checked and it is 100% negative earth return. I am getting a full 24V between the positive and the body. So what should I do? Spend a fortune on probably a new starter or alternator which are fairly common earth fault paths or spend time looking for the fault or just leave it as it is?

I Would very much like to know why an RM needs an insulated return and yet a Metrobus, Titan, Leyland National etc did not and of course your car survives this awful negative earth system. If proper routing and cable protection take place there should be no issue and if it doesn’t then an insulated return will only delay the big bang. I am surprised the insulated return wiring system was not lost when the refurbs took place.

Please do tell me if someone knows the reason. I am always willing and never too old to learn.

Roy

My 2 year old sprinter van has the Battery in the cab. It is below the rubber matting but never the less in the cab. I think the Ford Transit is the same. And are we only worried about the driver re fumes. The RM batteries are where the passengers sit. Have you seen batteries when cooking in the rear of an RM

Robert

Sat Navs. Have you checked the voltage range. Mine (a tom tom) is 12 or 24V. You will need an un illuminated “cigarette lighter” Socket (the lamps are invariably 12V). If you wish to avoid the insulated return issue simply fit two wires (positive to the centre pin, negative to the socket body) and then insulate the socket using some heat shrink sleeving or similar and cable tie in place. This will also negate the need to drill a large hole in the cab. An alternative method is to fit into an insulated enclosure (or plastic box). The same would apply to gauges with illumination.

Connection should be to a fused point. I can have a look at the drawing and let you know where to connect to.

24V or 12V. The higher voltage does not prevent the battery discharging. It is the battery capacity (in amp hours) that determines the how long they will last under such conditions.

David

PS If anyone wants to know how to trace the earth fault let me know and I will do a write up.

My bus number (if any): M1001, RML2276, T806

I would hate to tell you how the 12v amplifiers we use on our buses are powered!! We use a 2-core wire that comes under the bus floor from connections on one of the 12v batteries and up through the handbrake gaiter, its then runs across the cab floor and up the O/S window pillar to be connected by a screwed connector to the power input of the amplifier fitted where the bus radios were on RMs. Neither end is connected all the time, its only connected when required and works just fine. Apparently they have been doing that for years without any problems although I am sure its not a recommended method of powering a sound system!! I use a GPS when driving stuck on the speedo glass, (we have a tacho on the left of the cab) but its not powered, I top it up overnight and it lasts a good 4 or 5 hours if used to plan the route and then on when necessary.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Hi Colin,

As I have, oh so thankfully, managed to avoid having to work on anything running on smaller than 20 inch wheels for about 3 or 4 years, I had forgotten that Mercedes and Ford persist in fitting the batteries under the seat in the cab. This, like several vehicle design issues, reinforces my wish to meet the person who had the idea! Batteries under the seat were a pain in the **** from a servicing point of view in 1960s Atkinsons etc - not just reaching and seeing into them, but removing the rubbish that collected around them. We only had two Mk1s on that fleet and one of them was lost to a fire that started under the seat. I don't see that anything has changed, this is still the wrong place for a battery; drivers and passengers put things under the seats as they always have done, rubber mats etc don't get put back and one make of van I remember had the jack and handle stowed alongside the battery.
Move on a few years and the main agent I was working for, had delivered a fleet of Seddon Atkinson units to one of the major oil companies. We were changing alternators, starters or attending to electric suzie plugs regularly, because the vehicles were coming back with earth leakage faults. For some reason a check on this was not on the PDI inspection.
In later years one of my fellow fitters had been employed at that oil company depot and in conversation passed on about the green light and how it was virtually God.
Up to date and if the RM battery box lid does not fit properly then I defect the vehicle and do something about it.
I think it would be a good idea, for a qualified auto electrician, to put up a procedure for identifying whether a pos or neg leakage to frame is serious enough to warrant rectification and how to go about tracing the source.

hello Roy. I assume you meant me when you said Colin. (it is David Colin). I believe I am "qualified" to comment on this subject.

I can tell you that any body fault on one side of the battery (in my case the negative shorting is to the body somewhere) will be a problem if the otherside of the battery touches anything metal.There wll be a bang. But that is the case with 99.9% (that is a guess but you get my point) of vehicles on the road. So the only way insulated return can be better than an earth return is if regular checks are made and any fault is rectified instantly. In my case I am no worse off than any the vast majority of vehicles on the road.

I can write a procedure to test for positive or negative earth faults and also to break down the system to trace it's origin, but is it a serious enough problem to need it.

David

My bus number (if any): M1001, RML2276, T806

Thank you all for your suggestions. It is a real education. Before several of these replies, I spoke to Martin on the phone yesterday and I have taken up his solution, which is to fit a small 24 volt to 12 volt converter, with a cigarette lighter input.

All I need now is advice on where the easiest feed in the cab might be.

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

Sorry David, my screen resolution put your christian name off the screen. Qualified was meant as a compliment and used, because I, like many other fitters did not go on to 'read' auto electrics - hence I don't feel qualified to write the procedure. I know how I do it, but there is probably a faster method.
When it comes to the circuits and operation power doors I'm lost. I know they are somwhat similar to wiper motor auto-parking - which I can only just get my head around, without looking up my trusty manual.
My feeling on the earth leakage problem in an insulated return system, is that if a either a pos or neg is shorted to the body it can remain an undetected fire risk waiting for the other 'side' to go down as well.

If your RM has a positive or negative earth present it indicates a fault ie a wire touching the bodywork somewhere.A friend of mines RM had a negative earth on it and when we traced it back one of the main battery wires had been rubbing against the body work and had almost rubbed through.Also it had been getting very hot and could have caused a fire.A negative earth on a vehicle which is designed to be insulated return indicates a fault ie a breakdown in the insulation, which should be investigated.It is not the same as a modern vehicle with an earth return system it means that your vehicle has a fault in the wiring somewhere.When I worked in the bus industry a bus with an earth on it was failed by the traffic comissioner as a fire risk,and could not enter traffic until it was sorted.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Got 24 to 12 volt converter. (for SAT NAV), Anyone know where the best spot to get a 24 volt feed, from in the cab, might be?

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259