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RMOOA

Just to let people know that we now have in stock 2nd STD and 3rd STD King Pins Kits on the shelf.
We are back in stock of Sliding Bulkhead windows.( I sold 5 in one day)
The Gearbox Piston Seal kits are also back in stock, after a run on them.

Thanks

Rob

My bus number (if any): RM13

Re: RMOOA

Any progress with Quill drives Rob ? I would like to carry one on the bus as a spare in case of problems.
I'm sure lots of others would like one as well.

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391,UCOC 157

Re: RMOOA

No, Good point Mark,
I am going to see Martin next week, so should have good news.

Rob

My bus number (if any): RM13

Re: RMOOA

Any news on the fleet numbers I asked you for in Febuary Rob?

My bus number (if any): RML 2551

Re: RMOOA

Mark,

As most people are aware they are available service exchange from Imperial Engineering however as a complete unit, they are quite expensive.

We have stripped and modified a quill drive assembly so have a shaft as a pattern however we are struggling to get the shaft made at a competitive price but we are working on it. In order to get them at a realistic price most companies want us to place a minimum order of 100. Our aim is to have these assemblies on a service exchange basis and try to get the price about 50% cheaper than Imperial Engineering charge. I will put my man under pressure now as Rob is coming next week to put me under pressure!!

Already as most people are probably aware we recondition accumulators which are only £120 each. There is no VAT on this price which is over 50% cheaper than Imperial would charge as the cost from them is £240 plus VAT. We are also looking into the possibility of having some of these manufactured however there may be no advantage to this as Hubble Hydraulics will remanufacture them at a reasonable cost anyway.

We're also looking into the possibility of having other bits remanufactured, which I'm sure Rob will keep people updated on.

Martin

My bus number (if any): RML2583 and RM1357

Re: RMOOA

Evening Steve,

I have 2 companies that should be able to supply fleet numbers etc. but I seem to be struggling with both, as far as I know RMOOA used to buy them from

Lawrence Simmons.
Vinyl Plus Graphics.

Tel: 01293 774 737
Fax: 01293 785 166
www.vinylplusgraphics.com
I have been in conversation with them, but still no joy as yet.

As I seem to be struggling, is there anyone else out there who can point Steve and the Association in the right direction for some fleet numbers etc?

Regards

A not very successful

Rob Duker

My bus number (if any): RM13

Re: Quill Drives

Although it is great to have a good exchange price for Quill Drives, how much would it be to have them manufactured (even at a smaller quantity price) so we can actually carry a spare one on our buses as this would be much more useful should one break on the the road to avoid a tow home etc.? Many thanks Graham

My bus number (if any): RML 2747 & Ex Gash DD6

Re: RMOOA

if anyone is in need of vinyl or varnish fix transfers for their routemaster or other london transport vehicles then we are able to supply them or see us at north weald rally in july or email for any information were always willing to help

My bus number (if any): RCL2238

Re: RMOOA

hi rob i hope udont mind ive posted a message on roof to say we can produce the vinyl routemaster transfers and do carrythem in stock i hope u dont mind

My bus number (if any): RCL2238

Re: RMOOA

Simon,
The idea is to help each other, so I am grateful you posted. Steve should now be able to get his transfers.
Regards

Rob

My bus number (if any): RM13

Re: RMOOA

Whilst I see the importance of having spare parts available in the event of failure or for maintenance purposes but why is having or carrying a spare quill drive important? How often do these actually fail in use? We have a number of RTs and two RMs and they do a lot of mileage between them, the only thing we have had to change on the roadside is a starter motor which was brought to the bus from our base, we don't carry any parts "in case", where would you start to decide what to carry? Which brings me back to why carry a spare quill drive and not say a spare starter motor or dynamo/alternator?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RMOOA

I think the use that each vehicle has will depend on what spares it is prudent to carry. Buses which see only local use "for pleasure" do not really need to tow a trailer load of spares around with them "in case of failure". However long runs or nationwide touring would dictate a certain degree of sence.....engine and compressor belts, unloader valve, spare wheel, etc etc. It makes sence to have spares at home or at base in any sence....sensible stocks, not hoarding vast quantities of the same item which the owner will never use in this life or the next! Where do you draw the line on what to carry "on the bus"? As Brian says, why not carry a spare diff, or a spare set of injectors??!! Ultimately, its for the owner to choose of course, but all those spares add weight to the vehicle, which uses more fuel...and how much could the owner reasonably change at the roadside anyway, even if the spares and large tool kit are carried? As many of us have recovery policies, this may be the more sensible option...get the bus back, fix it at leisure (if thats possible) using the spares kept at base.

My bus number (if any): RM531

Re: RMOOA

Any recommendations on recovery policies? I have National Breakdown at present.

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

Re: RMOOA

Try Autohome on 0800 371 280. They run a breakdown fix or get-you-home scheme. It cost £80 per annum last time I renewed although this may now have gone up with VAT increases etc. You get £1000 worth of cover. If it comes to any more you pay the extra.

My bus number (if any): RM1001

Re: RMOOA

I understand that the quill drives were prone to failure hence the need to fabricate a stronger version by Imperial Engineering while the buses were in service. As it is such a small important item, that if it fails it is relatively easy to replace to restore the braking system without the need for a tow home why not carry one on the bus ? The alternative is to have the bus off the road while the part is exchanged or refurbished, provided supplies are available and the people who can do it are still in business ? ( how long would that take ?) My friend's RF suffered a broken injector pipe and a puncture recently on a trip - luckily he had both an injector and a spare wheel so the day was not disrupted too much for him (even our forum owner has been in a situation where he would have been glad of a spare injector pipe and a spanner or two). Many small spares can be stored under the lovers seat without adding too much 'weight' to the bus to affect the MPG - yes even a spare starter motor ! - if you call out the breakdown rescue to save doing the job yourself they almost certainly won't have the bits to fix it, at least the part may be to hand to fit ? I know which senario I'd prefer.

My bus number (if any): RML 2747 & Ex Gash DD6

Re: RMOOA

Many thanks for putting me in the picture Rob.Regarding the discussion on quill drives,In my experience the main reasons for these failing is due to over tightening of the drive belts or lack of lubrication (ie the grease nipple on the quill end).How many RM owners have checked theirs?

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Re: RMOOA

Graham Brown
I understand that the quill drives were prone to failure
Is this a fact or a chinese whisper? Who has actually had one fail in use given that there are something like 1000 RMs in private ownership? In truth quill drives are no more likely to fail than any other piece of a sub unit on an RM that has not had an overhaul for 30 plus years. LT certainly didn't have an issue with them. OK I accept that the buses are older and units not changed as often as they were under the LT overhaul and maintenance system and of course its totally sensible to source parts that are in short supply and/or needed for routine maintenace replacements, but really cannot understand why out of all the drives, switches, splines,bands,springs, hoses etc etc why THIS part is essential to carry as a spare?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RMOOA/QUILL DRIVES

An rmooa article a fair few years ago suggested a few items to carry as a precaution . One of which is a spare quill drive . It has been suggested that the quill is the weak point on the brake system and should it fail can fairly simply be replaced on the road as such . As mentioned the question is how likely are they to fail and then we can judge how useful would it be to carry one ? Most RM's carry spare belts tied up underneath 'just in case' as well , do we really need these as well ? You can carry all sorts of goodies on board in case , I've found out from experience its a good idea to carry a few different size hozes on board after my heater hose went in a spectacular style in a cloud of steam and coolant , I didn't have the right size though and waited about an hour or so for the breakdown service to arrive . Lucky I could describe the problem and what i needed to get going again and they just had the right size with them . I was fixed and away in 10 mins but could of done it myself for the sake of a bit of hoze ! I suppose at the end of the day it's all down to choice and what repairs you are capable of doing safely if you find yourself broken down . Some will be happy to fix it themselves while others will happily wait for the breakdown crew or a tow.
That said I would like to have a spare quill just for that instance. I also like to carry a small selection of tools with me just in case but thats easy for me as I don't use the bus for class 6 etc so have plenty of space and the choice to do so , others can't do that .

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391,UCOC 157

Re: RMOOA

Yes unfortunately it's not an old wives tale they do actually break and the shaft tends to snap right behind the pully. The pully continues to spin around resting on the casting so on first glance it would look normal until you grab hold of it. I have probably got half a dozen failed units with me at the moment some of which belong to the association which are to be refurbished once we can get the shafts as mentioned before at a realistic price. Complete units could be remanufactured however the cost of this wouldn't be viable the general idea will be for the association to stock units which will be on the shelf which people would be able to access quickly, I myself will always have one or two at the same price. The picture shows below the modified type and the original type however the modified type also fail as I have some of these units here which are also broken.

I do agree however that it's impossible to carry everything on your vehicle and unless you are doing a trip around the world your not exactly going to carry an alternator, a starter motor a gear box and a diff with you. I once had an injector pipe break, I also had a mechanic following me in a support van with various parts we thought we may need but we didn't have an injector pipe, we called the breakdown insurance people out and he made a pipe up and if they couldn't have then they would have recovered the vehicle back to my yard, that was through Rigton Insurance and was about £80/£85 a year.

I also believe the biggest cause of the shafts snapping in the first place is when the belts have been overtightened as somebody has also mentioned on this thread.

Photobucket

My bus number (if any): RM:2583 and RM1357

Re: RMOOA

Digging through the RMOOA compendiums came accross the following 'First Aid' list . Every Conscientious and well prepared (!!) RM owner should carry the following items to avoid getting stranded .
Plessey brake pump
compressor
injector pipe
alternator/compressor belts
jack and wheel brace
spare wheel
bulbs
power steering fluid
water
eng oil
selection of hoses
spare fuses
fusible plug for flywheel
by-pass plug
wiper blade
rad cap
basic tools
hand lamp/torch

And when on long distance outing :
Fuel pump
lift pump
steering pump
water pump
ep valve block
starter motor
alternator
injectors

Wonder how many of us carry all this with them !
No mention of kitchen sink though lol.

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391,UCOC 157

Parts and prudence

It's odd that I hardly ever heard mention of quill drive failure in the 1970s and early 80s.

If the defect had been so serious then the problem would have been resolved by LT fleetwide as with other lesser defects. Especially as the solution seems rather straightforward.

It is simply down to having a good maintenance regime and a good log of what was done and when.
If a quill drive is tensioned correctly and properly lubricated, then like most parts it should last for a very long time in service and in preservation, even longer.

It does seem to me that the problem seems to affect non original engined buses and the problem may be caused by torque throughput and/or the appalling judder that some cummins conversions had for a few years before a solution was found.

The problem for current owners is not knowing whether or not the maintenance was kept up to scratch for later service buses.

It would be interesting to see if the failures of late affect buses that lasted into service to the bitter end or remained in PSV service elsewhere and buses that passed into preservation in the LT era.

Lack of use also causes a plethora of otherwise unheard of problem.

The difference being that most RMLs were run into the ground in their last years in London as it was expected that they were to have been given a full Marshall overhaul which did not occur and just one depot made any serious efforts to uphold condition of their fleet.

Re: Parts and prudence

when i used to work at brixton.we had a lot of trouble with quill drives..at least 1 to 2 used to break a week.for us it was easy we used to carry a spare in the works van.get the bus back on the road and earning money.most of the rm's/l where iveco..one reason when the scania conversion was done,the decision was made to do away with the compressor and quill drive and run them off the engine.because they both used to fail. and hopefully that problem would be sorted

My bus number (if any): rm997

Re: Parts and prudence

In the 20 years I've operated Routemasters, I've only ever changed 2 quill drives, and both of those were in the last year on buses abroad. For heaven's sake, why carry a bus load of spares "just in case"?

I had to travel to Munich in January to change a quill and plessey pump that had failed. In fact the plessey had failed, so the bus was still driveable using the accumulators which I had replaced several months earlier. The other was for a customer in Belgium, and that quill drive had broken locally to his depot and he managed to drive back.

Fuels pumps, changed 1 on the road at Epsom once on RM1394 about 14 years ago, and one again in Belgium, both CAV units which had broken input shafts.

With regular servicing there should be little need to carry vast amounts of spares with you.

When I'm out on my RML I don't even carry any tools with me, but then it's a PSV.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Parts and prudence

Re-reading this thread, many years ago I took BEA MLL721 to Weymouth. On the way was a rumbling noise and engine running lumpy. On arrival at Weymouth, the late Alan Allmey diagnosed the fuel pump bearing had worn out.

Oh dear, that'll be difficult to replace said someone. Yes, I replied, as easy as opening the boot door. Inside the boot was a spare fuel pump! the highlight of the rally was me changing the fuel pump!

As I said earlier, these days I carry nothing and rely on preventative maintenance and regular safety checks. This doesn't stop things breaking and when they do, there's usually someone close at hand who can help. the last time was a sticky un loader valve and a chap from Chalkwell Coaches kindly helped out so my wedding guests were not delayed.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: RMOOA

Just wondering as I have no idea!

Were the sliding bulkhead windows an original feature on RM's and RML's when they first went into service? Is it something which was later removed to improve driver security?

Just interested in the history behind them...and do I need one?!

Many thanks,
Tom

My bus number (if any): RML2344

Re: RMOOA

Sliding bulkhead windows were never fitted to RMs in LT passenger service. They are an innovation on preserved buses presumably to aid communication with the driver. Like RMs when used as learners, our buses have no glass in this window as it aids ventilation and allows access to the cab when the platform doors have been locked.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RMOOA

Not strictly true Brian. The open top sightseeing fleet-London Coaches I think- started the sliding bulkhead window idea. RMOOA simply used the original design from these buses, from the original manufacturer- Percy Lane Products- and made them widely available. Now due to price rises, they are supplied by Cheshire Vehicle Windows, a company I tracked down and did all the leg work for, on behalf of the then RMOOA sales officer.

My bus number (if any): RM531

Re: RMOOA

Do these kingpin kits contain the adjusting shims? If not are there any plans to have some made? 'using the old one' does not necessarily work.
Also are there any 1st standard about anywhere please?

Re: RMOOA

You usually have to take shims OUT for adjustment if the pins are worn. I have a load in stock if you need any.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: RMOOA

Thanks, Yes I would like some please I will catch up with you. Actually I meant for setting up a new pin assembly, by the time it comes to having to overhaul the pins and bushes there is usually only one shim left, which of course isn't enough.

Re: RMOOA

To Roy the Bus ,
Can't help noticing you do a lot of RM servicing (!) . Just wondering if you could email your charges etc and if you could travel to Northampton if required ? m.allin@sky.com
Thanks
Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391 and UCOC 157

Re: RMOOA sliding bulkhead windows

Steve, you are 100% correct. It was myself that measured a sliding bulkhead window from a London Coaches RM in October 1995 and then asked Percy Lane, the original manufacturer, to produce the first batch for us.

Several batches were sourced from Percy Lane at this time, so anyone that has one of those from the early batches will have a unit that is identical, or as near makes no difference, to the London Coaches examples.

Later batches, as Steve states, were sourced from Cheshire Vehicle Windows and were different in a number of details.

My bus number (if any): RM1368

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Thuis might be a stupid question but as I don't know the answer..... RM 1585 had had a CT (MOT) and we have an advice that the king pins need changing (an advice is not a fail, it means that you have to do it in a specified time). We want to do this soon, but which size do we get?
The RMOA has two standards and I gather Graham Meadows can do other standards, but which do I go for? How do we determine the "standard" required given that we cannot just run them back if they are not right.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 and several RTs

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Hello Brian,

Remove the kingpin top cap (not particularly easy), clean out the grease around the top of the pin and count the ring grooves machined into the top face of the pin. Zero standard pin; one stage two; two stage three. Also observe that the top face of the pin is flush (or very, very nearly so)with the top face of the stub axle.

If you fit a repair stage pin to a standard King post then the top face of the pin will be noticeably and incorrectly lower making the pin protrude excessively at the bottom, thus meaning it cannot be shimmed up properly for adjustment of the thrusts.

Of four RMs I have checked in the last 18 months which have worn bushes, all appear to have standard pins; which of course aren't the ones available.

The difference is in the tapered part of the pin - unless it is a Chiswick special - in which case you could find all sorts of strange things have been done.

Do NOT assume both sides will be the same. Chech.

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Hi Brian,
Info found on the link to a web site, If you look on the top of the pin you can determine which size pin you need.
I think that Graham has pins but no bushes, RMOOA has complete sets for sale if you contact Mitch

Regards

Rob

http://cms02.website-start.de/app/243041018/920648015/#hm:cc-sa-window-close

My bus number (if any): RM997 Keeping the scrap yards clear of Routemasters

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Thanks Rob, that is very useful as is the info on your site. From talking to an ex LT bus Mechanics, it appears that the garages never touched kingpins, they were only done at Chiswick when the boat was removed and sent in or on overhaul.

What is puzzling me is and this may appear daft, so please excuse the ignorance, if there is play in the pins now will it be the pin that has worn or the bush? If it is the actual pin that is worn, and if it is a "standard" ( or 2nd or 3rd) do I need to go "up one" or just replace like with like? The Engineering Bulletin Rob links to, talks about king post wear and the need to ream out to remove corrosion and use different standards, should this concern me or is that only if there is corrosion in the kingpost?

Last question, is any special tooling needed to remove and replace the parts necessary to remove on the boat to access the kingpins?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 and several RTs

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

The link is not working. What is the name of the website please?

Both the pin and the bushes will be worn. Certainly bad practice among bonus chasing fitters is to just renew the pin and forget about the bushes. Other times it may be possible to change the bushes only if the pin appears OK. Neither is correct.

One needs to be clear whether the problem is rock, ie bush wear which would be 3/8" maximum at the edge of the tyre; or lift in the thrusts which would be 10 thou for an RM measured with a feeler gauge between the kingpost and the stub axle.

Normal tools only required to strip down and refit. However the inner wheel bearing is likely to be extremely tight on the stub and there is a tool for this. If careful, the bearing can remain in place, but must be kept clean. A decent two leg puller may be needed to release the side arm ball joint taper.

You will likely need new shims to set up the thrusts properly. These naturally aren't in the kit! The bonus-chasers just refit the old shims that came out and hope someone else gets the job of doing it properly some other time.

A kingpin job on any vehicle is not particularly popular because there is plenty of scope for aggravation, which is why so many corners are cut. Whatever anyone says, you should not need oxy acetylene. AEC pins are easier than a lot of other designs.

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Here you go Roy

http://cms02.website-start.de/app/243041018/920648015/#hm:cc-sa-window-close

My bus number (if any): RLH 62

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Not a popular job indeed. It usually requires a very big hammer to get the pins out unless you're lucky enough to have a king pin extractor tool.

It it sometimes possible to get rid of up and down movement by removing a couple of shims from the bottom plate.

I usually find it easier by removing the wheel, brake assembly and backplate for easier access to the top of the pin. When replacing the bushes, you'll need a couple of hand reamers and maybe one of those tools with the 3 rotating stones, ah yes, a hone. (memory fade moment).

I remember doing a bus one day, setting it up properly, then it failing the MoT an hour later because the pins had settled down on the short journey to Mitcham testing station!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Thank you to both Roys for very helpful information. I'll try and find out on what basis the king pins have been "failed".

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 and several RTs

Re: RMOOA ( King Pins)

Yes, up-and-down or side-to-side!

There's a technical term for it which wouldn't be printable on a respectable forum like this..

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Quill drives

Hi Martin
Sorry for resurrecting this, but I have sent you an E mail re a quill drive requirement, can you look out for it as it's urgent!
Thanks

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs