Just my own personal thoughts and opinions here, but would welcome a good open debate on this with a view to moving things forward.

I have grave concerns for the future of bus preservation. There simply are not enough younger people coming into the movement. The reasons are many- not least the "nerd" or "geek" image which transport enthusiasts suffer, some of which is deserved. We do attract some strange people.

Most events are populated by the older generation, and mostly male. Generally but not exclusively, females are of the bored wife in tow variety. There are few children and few young people. Youngsters are an emotive issue- certainly unsupervised children and large moving vehicles are a dangerous combination. Photographers tend to loathe them as they spoil their perfect shot sometimes. But children are the future of our hobby, the enthusiasts and hopefully owners of tomorrow. They need to be encouraged to events, but there needs to be something bus related there to stimulate their interest. Generally there isn't. I think everyone needs to think really, really hard about this, because in about 10-15 years time I foresee a serious problem. It is not difficult, when one looks at the general age profile of owners at events, generally, it is late fifties and upwards. Insurance can become a problem at 70. Capability of handling the vehicle and affording ownership in these days of dwindling pensions is another issue. People need to ask who is going to inherit their vehicle when the inevitable sadly happens, and what will they do with it.

The mass withdrawl of routemasters opened a door to ownership for a whole new generation of enthusiasts. I am 39 tomorrow and am certainly among the tiny minority of owners in this age group.

A further problem is taxation. Post 1972 vehicles do not enjoy nil rates of road tax, so we are going to see a whole era of vehicles from Leyland Nationals to Bristol VRs falling by the wayside as unrestored examples succumb to the scrap man, and potential new owners suffer a lack of suitable and affordable vehicles to enter the the ownership game. The high price of fuel also does nothing to encourage people to buy a fuel hungry bus. Fifty quids worth of diesel is soon burnt at an event, or just getting there. It's hard earned and very easily spent. This is before maintenance costs are even considered...and storage.

This fuels the inflated market for vehicles such as ours which are in far better condition than comparable vehicles of their age, and could be viewed as an "easy entry" into the world of ownership compared with say an RT or Lodekka with their wooden frames and all the horrors which that entails.

But if there is no new blood coming into the world of ownership, who will own these fine vehicles after us? Will their values plummet as owners fall from the tree, leaving a surplus of vehicles with no queue of potential owners waiting for them?

Where are the younger people learning the skills required to drive crash gearboxes, or pre-selector? They simply are not there. Where are the younger people learning the skills of wooden body restoration? They are extrememly thin on the ground, in very small numbers. The key has got to be attracting more young people into the museums, to the events, and getting our buses exposed to people who perhaps have not considered them before.

Running events are popular, especially when tagged onto another type of event such as vintage or steam rallies and Victorian fairs such as the poular event at Llandudno. Get people looking at, and riding on old buses who would not normally do so. Let kids sit in the cab so their parents can take their photograph. (I have photos of me aged 8 sitting in the cab of an ECW bodied Bristol RE coach at Mann Island in Liverpool!). I was taken to the London Transport museum aged 10 and could not be prised from the sectioned cab of that DMS for almost an hour. And so my own interests were fuelled and today I am an owner. The LTM has done a lot of hard work attarcting schools and young people.....some may criticise that there are fewer artefacts and traditional exhibits, but its critical that change happens in order to attract a new generation. Sadly not many museums have followed suit for whatever reason, probably financial- and they suffer the stuffy atmosphere and clientel which does not endeer itself to a good family day out.

A similar situation exists in the world of preserved railways. A good friend of mine volounteered at a certain preserved railway in the Manchester area. At 51 he was the youngest volounteer. While they were happy to let him leave home at 5am at the weekend to clean the inside of boilers, it was cliquey, he was not made welcome as part of "the club" and was eventually driven away. And steam railways have the allure of "Thomas the Tank Engine" events to draw in the crowds, yet still they suffer. Bus enthusiasm has no "Thomas" to draw in the new blood. What has happened to the (ruined!) RTs created for the Harry Potter films? Vanished into storage. What an attraction for youngsters at an event they would be. A bus, from a globally famous and popular film brand. A brand seen on childrens merchandise the world over. Just like Thomas.

Over to you.

My bus number (if any): RM531

Steve

I could be the first to say this and I`m sure others will follow, but what a well thought out and brilliantly articulated viewpoint you`ve thrown as a lead for others to follow. You`ve hit so many nails on the head. Were you a carpenter in a previous life?

Perhaps I can add and offer this. Could it be that the older age group usually associated with preservation have very different values compared to todays younger generation? And were these values obtained, in part, at work? I speak as someone who has spent 38 years working with buses and coaches (ever since I left school) and there used to be certain standards and disciplines that were accepted and adhered to as an expected part of getting the job done. Passengers tended to adhere to better social standards too. I absolutely cringe at what I see around nowadays in terms of sloppy standards - be it vehicle / staff appearance or disrespect shown by a minority of users.

So the point I`m trying to make is that there is, I think, a direct link between many owners of preserved vehicles and the people who view those vehicles fondly at rallies in the reminders of happy times when standards were higher and bus staff were better paid, motivated and thought of than they are now? My RT`s to and from school didn`t involve sitting among the slashed seats, etched glass and felt pen scribble over every surface that put the thought in the back of your mind that this isn`t always a safe or pleasant environment. My time on LT until I left in 1987 involved RM`s that also hadn`t sufferred this. At 55 I look back to that era and remember nice times in the bus world. If I had more time I would happily wander along rally lines of vehicles appropriate to those times and could even include VR`s and Nationals up to a point. But beyond there when one person operation predominated my interest stops as my memory reminds me that such vehicles come from an era that I don`t like.

So I agree that younger people probably won`t come into bus preservation as others had before them. Financial pressures will, I`m sure, hinder or even stop such interest. But more than that I just don`t envisage rows of 1980`s buses attracting much interest because travelling on them (and working with them) lacked the charm, adventure and reasonable feeling of security that older buses usually had. True, it was crew buses that best provided a certain civility but even 1970`s one person operated buses had some endearing qualities too before standards slipped. They were times when many people actually travelled by bus by choice.

I also think it`s true to say that a crisis awaits those owners of preserved vehicles now who already know of no natural successor to their pride and joy. Who will have the means and knowledge to take on a vehicle that has a high proportion of parts that are no longer readily available or require now lost skills to make? How many preservationists can take on the burden of adding fantastic condition but unwanted vehicles just to stop them befalling an unfortunate fate? Would my son cherish all the bus stuff I have? Not a chance. He isn`t from the relevant era, has never had to use buses and can`t understand why it means anything to me. Short of bequething vehicles to a place with the space, finance and remit to look after them for ever, I too think that in twenty years time we won`t have bus rallies of the scale, frequency and attendance that we do now as many of the owners and their vehicles won`t be around.
I think I`m going to have to rummage through my box of Mortlake memorabilia now to cheer myself up a bit after reading through what I`ve just written!!!

Thank you Neil.
It is a subject very close to my heart and I speak with passion. Standards in society no doubt play a part. Lack of standards, and lack of respect. I grew up with the last of Crosville's Bristol RE's, and brand new Leyland Nationals and VR's. I was amazed and shocked at the beauty and modernity of Crosville's first Leyland Olympian, GFM 101X. I would happily own any of these vehicle types, restored to the as-new condition I remember so well. I never believed I could own an RM. As a youngster I used to forlornly scan the lists of vehicles "scrapped at Barnsley", Scrapped at Aldenham" at the back of Buses magazine each month. I remember seeing stacks of Gibson ticket machines at rally stalls, unwanted! What I would do to go back in time and pick a couple up!
I think nostalgia for the vehicles we grew up with does not preclude the modern era, its a matter of personal choice, and age. But for younger people today, where are the 1970's vehicles for them to restore, but more importantly, where are the people wanting the buses??

Sadly, as far as bequething beautiful buses to caring museums goes....will the museums have the space, or will they turn vehicles away as they are full already....with dwindling incomes from those who bother to attend? Will the museums even be around? Aston Manor is already in dire straits and may not survive.....

My bus number (if any): RM531

As a small reassureance to you, I am only 17 years old, my best friend.. he is 19, and our associate is 21, and we have just spent the past 6months saving every bit of our wages to save KYV358X (T358) from scrap as it was our old School bus and is now the last of its Kind from the late operator MORLEY's OF WHITTLESEY.

All that the majority of people at our local heritage railway have done is criticise us, and try and put us off buying her by pressuring us, asking many questions about storage, MOT furutre funds & Insurance etc. in an agressive way and bad mouthing us behind our backs saying we will never get it done & we'll end up scrapping her ourselves.

All we want is a chance to proove to the world that the young bus enthusiast isnt a nuicense and that some of us do infact know what we're on about and that we do know the ins and outs of preserving a vehicle that is close to us and our childhood!

So next time any of you reading this see T358 around, just think, "They did that in their teens... WOW, and what a bus she is!"

Sorry if I sound like i'm ranting. but i too agree, there are too many people trying to deter the younger generation away from Bus preservation.

My bus number (if any): T358

An excellent series of points and very thought provoking replies.

I was put off the bus rally scene many years ago not by the mixture of oddballs who seem to get attracted but by the cliques that seemed to go out of their way to keep everything at arms length.

As one gets older, one finds this in many walks of life, but more so in this country.

The owners who would get aggressive towards anyone who wanted to look inside their bus and the general hostility towards younger people.

I had never thought about things from Neil's point of view but it does make good sense and maybe underlines why some are wary of younger enthusiasts.

Culture and time have tarred a generation with the same brush. I would think it strange if my kids would be interested in an old fashioned vehicle- of any sort.

When I was young RMs were not old fashioned - RTs were. The only difference then is that I liked RTs more because they were old fashioned in an era (even then) when anything modern was to be embraced.

So I think there is still hope for a next generation of preservation but the seeds of enthusiasm will have to be sown from preservationists as LT and it's like is now pure history

Nathan,
First, welcome to you and your friends and congratulations on your project. I don't have time this morning to write a full reply, but as I'm sure you're waiting for some sort of answer with advice I'll offer the following.
Having looked up to see where Whittlesea is, I notice it is between Peterborough and March. There is certainly one RM owner and contributor in the area who can offer advice and I'll look up to see who it is. Furthermore I'm sure you will have seen Knowles of Wimblington's lorries about. This is a dedicated preservationist of classic lorries, I sincerely hope, that if you do your research about the company and its old lorries, and then contact them with photo's of what you have done so far with a realistic plan of what you can achieve, than you will be offered sound advice and perhaps introduced to a farmer in the area with a suitable building. If you can, ask to speak to those of their fitters who have been involved in the restoration of the company's fleet of classic lorries - these are the men with the experience and no doubt some will be Gardner men through and through. However be warned, for some stupid reason some of the lorry fraternity seem to have a downer on buses.
If you all lack knowledge, buy some of the specialist monthly magazines ie Bus and Coach preservation, Classic & vintage commercials,Heritage commercials etc. - glossy and expensive, but they keep you intouch and have good parts for sale sections.
If you are further along the road than having just acquired the vehicle, then I'm sorry if this is sucking eggs, but certainly the more contacts you have the better.
Good luck

Thank-you for the Advice.

Is that owner by anychance Chris Dobbing?
If so Me & Stephen are conductors of his.

In regards to suitable storage we have found space at Emblings Coaches/Judds Travel of Bridge Garage, Guyhirn.

By the way I Wasnt by anychance saying i get annoyed at people asking us questions about what we are doing with her. I Get annoyed at those who say it maliciously and do it to try and make us feel small and give up. Anyone with Constructive advice we more than welcome warmly!

And thanks for the tip off about the parts advertised in magaznies!! :)

My bus number (if any): T358

Congratulations on your purchase and the best of British luck. You have made a start and now the fun begins. Licencing and taxation will have to be understood, and you will no doubt encounter problems of one sort or another along the way. But you have entered with your eyes open and with the right advice and help, there is no reason why your bus cannot be as good as anyone elses. Start with the smaller jobs, one at a time, and dont leave jobs unfinished to start another. Things tend to get left, and before you know it the bus is half in bits with dozens of jobs on the go. Set your standards high, it is your bus, and it should reflect your pride in it. Without you it would be in Barnsley with all the others. Do not be put down by anyone, listen to advice and welcome to the world of bus preservation. Now get ready to be the butt of peoples jokes about Blakey, Cliff Richard etc and have an answer ready when people ask "WHY?" (The best is that you got tired of waiting for buses so decided to buy one, OR, "Its my way of upsetting the council by driving in bus lanes, think how good it would be if everyone bought one, the roads would be free of cars!")
It might be worth contacting Glenvale Travel, trading as Stagecoach in Merseyside, Gillmoss garage, East Lancs Road, Liverpool. They ran the huge fleet of ex London Titans in Liverpool and may be able to help with advice and maybe even spares. They are a friendly bunch, try contacting the engineering manager.

My bus number (if any): RM531

Nathan
Unfortunately in the bus preservation world as with many other things in life you need to develop a thick skin.For some unknown reason people seem to take pleasure in picking holes in just about anything.In my own case I along with the help of good friends have managed to restore a bus to some of its former glory.I turned up at my first rally with what I thought was a well turned out bus only to be hit with comments like "Well you've spoilt that by spraying it instead of brush painting,the wheels are the wrong colour and that bus never ran on the route that is on the destination blind"
If you take the time to question people that criticize you invariably find that they don't own buses or indeed have played no part in restoring anything.At the end of the day if you are happy with the results of your hard graft thats all that matters.
I am considerably older than you and i take my hat off to you and your friends for doing something about a vehicle that is part of your life.
So many points have been raised by Steve and i have to say i agree with just about every one.
The problem we have is that we need to alter the mindset of the general public.I too have been to Rallies where owners turn up,Lock up and wander off.I try to stay with my bus as long as i can if only to struggle to answer questions about her.I am still amazed at the amount of people that ask if they can look inside then recount to their kids how they went to school on a bus just like this one.
A big part of the rally scene for me is talking with people about their experiences and i am sure they appreciate the opportunity to sit and chat about the old days rather than staring in through the windows of a locked bus.
I am involved with organizing a rally in my part of the country and we find that the shuttles that we do are nearly always packed.
The bus rally runs in conjunction with a preserved steam and Diesel railway so we have both Rivet counters and anoraks,but we also have a healthy mix of family's.Young people are interested in what we are doing to keep these vehicles going and it is very much down to us to nurture this rather than push them away.
As a child i was taken to the Transport museum in Clapham and we were given a tour round by I guess an ex driver or conductor that hated children.Needless to say the memory of a grumpy old bloke and buses stuck in my memory for years.Later that year at the Three Counties show ground near Malvern I sat in the cab of a Guy Warrior truck and a working life of truck driving followed,so we as owners must try to show a little more consideration for young people and not tar them all with the same brush as being only interested in things electronically operated.
Starting to rant so better stop but basically its up to us to inform and educate as much as possible.

P.S.When you get your bus mobile mail me and we will be pleased to include her in one of our rallies.

My bus number (if any): RML2478

My bus number (if any): RML2271

Hi Nathan , good luck with it and hope to see it at Sacrewell in July ?
What is really needed in or near your area is a bus museum which can be opened up to the public and where members can work together for the common good of preservation .

mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391 and UCOC 157

My bus number (if any): T358

How gratifying to hear about young people taking an interest in buses and working together hard to get a Titan on the road from a missed independent operator. Yes, you will get those who do not have a good word to say as frequently happens with my RM and the doom mongers are to be found in all walks of life. The criticisms I get are: why don't you paint her in correct LT colours/why have blinds of routes that she never ran on etc etc etc. I ignore them and you must do the same. Who owns the bus and who is investing a large amount of money in her - you are, so can can basically do what you want with her and ignore the others. There are also many good people in the bus preservation movement (as witnessed in the replies you have had) and there are always those who will help as well if asked. Good luck to the three of you and I look forward to seeing your bus at a rally in the future.

My bus number (if any): RM2116 and Rf269