Any recommendations on fuel gauges, especially those with no moving parts. Getting used to how far it goes, but would be much more comfortable with a gauge.

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

We use the engine oil dipstick.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

We used a sawn down broom handle and marked it and the top level when full.
we also slid on a UJ gaiter from a mIni and glued a sink plunger. This ensured that the rod would sit in the same place. Then the rod was calibrated from top to bottom over a few weeks. This stick lasted several years. Was kept in the cab. Very effective.

We do a similar thing with a length of white plastic conduit. Easier to wipe clean and will not rot. That said I tend to fill up at the start of each event to make sure I have plenty.

I have once run out of diesel. I collected my bus from Sheffield and headed for a pre booked mot. I thoought the tank was fairly full so hadn't checked it. I ran out of diesel when leaving the M1 to get on the M18. Luckily a friend was not far from me and he brought four 1 gallon cans of diesel to me. I still managed to get to the mot on time and pass but I do not want to have to do it again.

My bus number (if any): M1001 RML2276 T806

We carry a 5 litre can of diesel under the bench seat on our RTs for emergency, if we get a lift pump failure it can go in the header tank, or if out in the fuel tank. Its really not advisable to let the fuel get low as there is all sorts off crap in the bottom of fuel tanks. On RMs a can of fuel could be kept in the conductor's locker.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Sorry for the delay in my reply. Many thanks everyone. I love these suggestions, especially using the oil dip stick, as that is using something which is already there.

I am however curious about the lazer type gauges, with no moving parts, that send a signal to a standard looking gauge meter in the cab. Any of you had experience with them, or can recommend any to consider?

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

"All sorts of muck in the bottom of the fuel tank"

There shouldn't be. Get rid of it.

Agreeing with Roy above, also re the comments about the modern phenomenon of diesel bug, a nasty stuff that appears to grow in modern diesel. It shouldn't happen if you top up and use the bus regularly.

Also, if you're fitting an electric fuel gauge, make sure you don't earth ANYTHING through the body and chassis. See the warning given on another post about that.

Personally I use a broom stick or any other bit of wood that happens to be lying about!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

When you say don't earth anything, take the two wires that go to the wiper switch. One of them must be earthed to something, right, presumably the earth off the battery if nothing else? How about splicing into those before the switch?

Please forgive my ignorance here, if appropriate. ;-)

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

Its not the earth of the battery its the negative terminal.There should be no earths on a Routemaster it should be insulated return.If you have an earth then you have a fault in the insulation somewhere on the vehicle.Find it before an earth of the opposite polarity causes a fire.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Or causes problems with your gearbox control panel.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

This comes up periodically on the forums. It appears many have had it drummed into them that a Routemaster must have an insulated return or your bus will immediately burn to the ground.

Originally vehicles were made of non conductive materials and so needed a return path in the form of an insulated wire. Modern vehicles are made of conducting materials with an earth return. Now the last time I looked there was not a huge pile of burning cars, lorries and buses. Manufacturers changed to negative earth as it was a better option with electronics and where TV suppression was needed. The only vehicles that needed insulated return were petrol tankers and the like and that was purely to reduce the chance of a spark from a short with so much fuel around. Hardly an issue with an RM. Of course a second fault on the opposite pole will be an issue but no more than a positive fault on a Metrobus, Titan, National, and every other vehicle built since.

As for gear faults being caused by earth faults, Really? I have never seen this and I have had an earth fault on my bus for 6 years with no problems what-so-ever.

And how many of us are going to spend money changing an otherwise good starter motor or alternator when you find that is the item giving you the fault.

If of course you cite corrosion as an issue with earth return vehicles, I will accept that. It has always been the downside of earthing (and slightly less with positive earth) but only where bad connections exist.

I would worry more about fuse/mcb and cable sizing, routing of cables, use of protection when running through holes (grommets etc). They are the things that will burn your bus down.

David

My bus number (if any): 2 x negative earth, 1 x inslulated return with a fault somewhere

Aargh, run away, RM's burning to the ground! I think only 2 RMs have ever burnt to the ground, and they were through the flywheel overheating!

The reason NOT to earth things is due to what I said earlier, problems CAN be caused elsewhere like the gear panel and 3rd gear (for some reason) goes positive earth. So far this year I've done 3 abroad with negative earth giving gear problems, good for business with my gear panel suppliers and for my gearbox suppliers. Just speaking from experience, no scientific knowledge, but what David says is right.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

The Metrobuses that I have part rewired following fires have been caused by a mixture of mechanical and electrical faults. Hydraulic pipes being rubbed until they squirt fluid onto the exhaust manifold and cab light short circuits that resulted in excessive front end damage. The latter can still happen today as nothing was ever done to rectify the fault.

Were the bendy bus fires electrical or mechanical does anyone know?

As for fuel gauges, dip it as stated. If it isn't full then fill it.

My bus number (if any): T806 M1001 RML2276

I think that you are missing the point.An earth on an insulated return vehicle is a fault.An earth on an earth return vehicle is not a fault.Earth return PCVs tend to have LSF cabling and different circuit protection such as MCB@s or quick blow fuses etc.A cause of an earth on an insulated return vehicle could be a cable chaffing and touching the bodywork and as vehicle harnesses have both feed and returns in the harness then this increases the likely hood of a short.In years gone by a bus would fail its test if it had an earth on it,but as maintenace standards have dropped over the years then this has fallen by the wayside,and the standard of recently withdrawn RML,s wiring was abysmal with wires rubbing all over the body work where contractors were let loose on them.All I'm saying is if you have an earth on your RM then you have a fault, end of.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Yep, agree with Steve there too! Some of the wiring horrors I've seen on service buses but more so on buses abroad that have been chopped /converted! then they wonder why the alternator won't work/gears don't work/it won't start (engine door switches cut out on Metro's)etc.

I've just found an earth fault on my GS, it's the starter motor, so that'll have to be sorted before it goes for its class 6 next month! That too uses a broomstick fuel gauge which sometimes has a earth fault when the broom falls over.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Steve

I have not missed the point. I agree a fault is a fault and should be rectified. I just do not want to buy a new alternator/Starter motor/EP valve block or any other expensive component to cure a fault that is not causing me a problem. Where you are missing the point is that converting your vehicle (which is what I am actually suggesting) to a negative earth will not cause a problem and will cure any negative earth faults you have (you will need to repair positive earth faults of course). I am surprised it was not done as a part of the refurbishment.

Where you may also have been misled is the purpose of LSF (low smoke and fume) cable. It doesn’t offer better protection or prevent shorts. It simply stops the passengers being choked as they attempt to leave the burning bus. As it is RML’s should be wired in LSF cable as it was part of LBL’s electrical specification at the time of the refurbishments. MCB’s s are not any better than the RM fuse (which on most RML’s have been replaced with MCB’s anyway) in a short circuit condition. In fact the MCB has been known to weld the contacts together under short circuit conditions causing massive damage to at least one RML and several Metrobuses. None of the items you have mentioned make any difference to the return path method used.

As for the likelihood of a positive and negative both shorting if chaffing, that is surely less likely in an insulated return rather than more likely so I am not sure of your argument. The point is that no chaffing should be allowed under any circumstances and as I previously stated it is the installation practice and the sizing of cables and protective devices that needs addressing not the return path method.

Actually one point I have just thought of. Even though the negative is insulated on the return the protective devices are only fitted in the positive cable. If you have any sort of negative earth fault and a positive cable then shorts as long as a fuse or an MCB is in that circuit it will operate. If however a main (unfused) positive is shorting somewhere, ANY negative that subsequently shorts will not have any fusing in the circuit. Bang! That alone is a good reason to have a negative earthed vehicle.

The reason we earth everything in the mains world is because nothing is 100% insulated. The same applies to 24V DC equipment. Earth leaks occur. It is better to find that fault with a blowing fuse as you should do on an earth return vehicle rather that find it with a burning bus under the circumstances above.

David

My bus number (if any): RML2276, M1001, T806

LSF cabling also has greater flame resistant characteristics,the insulation will not go brittle and snap and has a greater resistance to chaffing so is more durable.Also MCBs have a much faster trip rate under fault conditions (eg @ 31 Milliseconds) than an ordinary fuse and should fail safe in the open circuit position.
My argument is simply that an earth fault should be investigated to find the cause so that an informed decision can be made as to what (if any) remedial work is required rather than just leaving it in the hope that nothing does go wrong.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

As indeed any fault should be investigated and put right at the earliest opportunity.

Many years ago I worked for Richardsons Coaches in Northants. Jim Richardson asked me one day "what is the most important nut on a bus?"

I pondered on that for ages; sump plug, steering wheel nut, wheel nut.."No, the loose one" was the reply.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Steve
MCB's should, but do not always, fail in the open position. With a short circuit that produces a current in excess of the maximum capacity of the circuit breaker, welding together of the contacts can occur. I have seen this first hand on a refurbished Westbourne Park Routemaster following a stair light fault and numerous Metrobuses with cab light faults. All resulted in extensive damage. In the case of the Metro's, a cab to front door rewire and the RML, an offside and cab rewire.
For that reason alone, in the case of short circuit protection I would prefer a fuse every time. Where overloads occur then an MCB is often better but each circuit, its load, cable size, cable run and type of equipment being fed should be taken into account. Too often electrical circuits, be it vehicle, household or commercial buildings, are installed using "off the shelf" beliefs instead of actually being designed for the purpose. I spoke at length to one of the vehicle engineering institutes some time ago regarding electrical design. He said he has always been concerned at the lack of skill some have that are in a position of designing and installing vehicle wiring. It is nothing like that required of building electrical engineers or at least is certainly not enforced. And a 31ms response is rather fast. Where is that figure from and under what conditions and why would it be needed? Even your 32A mcb for your sockets at home only has to react within 200ms at its fastest and to achieve that an RCD is often required.

Not sure of your LSF statement. I would need to look into it a bit deeper but I would say that modern tough cables are probably almost all LSF but LSF cables are not all tougher in their make up.

I have already agreed that a fault is a fault and should be investigated but you have failed to respond to my suggestion that a Routemaster would survive quite happily as an earth return vehicle. The belief of many or more on this and other forums is that an insulated return is the only way a Routemaster can be wired and yet every other vehicle on the market today (bar some specialist motors) have earth return.

Roy (I think mentioned it), where in the MOT does it state that insulated return vehicle will be checked and failed if an earth exists or was this just an LT requirement checked at FFD.

Dunno if you meant the last comment for me or the other roy, this is confusing. I've never known a vehicle examiner to possess a test meter or indeed anything that can test electrics apart from his eyes! There is no requirement for electrical testing in the current examiners handbook apart from a visual check that things work!

I don't think any of us have said an RM MUST be wired with insulated return, in my view it lessens the risk of other faults cropping up as discussed.

And yes, I've seen an awful lot of very dodgy wiring on buses!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Wasn't me guv' honest. No I didn't mention the MOT having that sort of electrical check. The one check that seems to catch some people out is insecure connections particularly at the batteries.

I also agree that insulated is not a holy grail for RMs, but what is important is that one cannot mix and match. We are stuck with the system and any additions or alterations must be to this standard; unless the vehicle is completely rewired. As always, the hardest fault to find is one that someone has put there.

I cannot recall any AEC goods vehicle being wired other than insulated. It's stretching a point, because we only had one, but I go back to the tin-front Mammoth Major MkIII. AEC wiring was black with little yellow numbered tags that you couldn't read.

Roy the bus

you had said "I've just found an earth fault on my GS, it's the starter motor, so that'll have to be sorted before it goes for its class 6 next month!" I probably wrongly took that as meaning you thought it would be checked.

David

My bus number (if any): RML2276, M1001, T806

Ah, not to worry! It's oner of those niggly faults that needs to be dealt with. The fuel gauge works ok. Got a new broom stick!!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Just seen this on Ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/London-Transport-fuel-dipstick-/220846848504?pt=UK_Collectables_Bus_CoachCollectables_SM&hash=item336b7f79f8 - think it would be a struggle to get it in to our refurb filler tubes and not a very wonderful looking copy but interesting. Does anyone know if there ever was a "carbon fibre" version?

My bus number (if any): RML2302

I can honestly say I never saw any form of fuel gauge used in an LT bus garage in RT/RF/RM times. I did many studies of the run-in at loads of garages when with RS Buses to assess manning levels, number of islands to have open to avoid congestion on nearby roads, shift start times etc. The fuel nozzle was just put in and allowed to run into the tank until full, why would a gauge be needed and if it was why did so many buses have fuel slick marks all over the fuel filler panel? I think the seller is getting mixed up with brass oil dip sticks that were used on the run in.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

To refer to more recently departed vehicles, the A V Olympian must have been a real pain to allocate to a route, with its small fuel tank and hence limited endurance. I have had the dubious pleasure of running out of fuel in one of these 8 times.

In today`s world of technology and financial accountability it must seem quite incredulous to many that no traditional LT bus type around at the end of the 1970`s had a fuel gauge - either in the cab or in the vicinity of the tank. The reason was quite simple.
LT Bus design incorporated a size of fuel tank deemed sufficient to meet the maximum daily requirement when hours and speed of operation plus m.p.g were taken into consideration.

As Brian said, the evening run-in was a very carefully planned and agreed procedure enacted out in all garages nightly involving a team of people with specific allocated tasks to perform. The man responsible for fuel was also in charge of topping up water and oil levels with the latter involving the dip stick as mentioned which generally hung on a wire close to where it was needed for quick utilisation without having to wonder where it had been put after the previous use. This same man also had to pre-wash the bus front too. Remember, the bus wash only had side brushes. Fronts and backs were hand done though this varied in standard across the fleet and caused many RM bonnet areas to be filthy. So, the sequence was to insert the fuel gun, do the water, oil and pre-wash by which time the fuel gun had `clicked off`. There was no visual check - full was assumed - the gun was quickly removed and the bus taken on by a different man to be washed and parked.

99.9% of the time this `assumption ` system worked. But i can recall a couple of inherant weaknesses causing havoc.

Unseen by the fuel man one night at Tottenham at some point in 1974/5, a fault with the the fuel gun was causing it to `click off` when only half a tank had been dispensed. By 4pm the next day, bus after bus ran out of fuel - and we had 135 vehicles allocated! Through the start of the evening rush hour buses were stalling across junctions and on busy bus stops causing utter chaos! Only the 73`s and 76`s were on radio at that time so the 41`s, 171`s and 243`s plus the DMS operated 106`s and 259`s were having to be intercepted by roadside inspectors to be alerted to the problem. 41`s had to go to HT for fuel, 171`s to WL, PM or NX, 243`s to WN but only every other 73 went to R and the 76`s didn`t pass any other garage apart from SF which was near to AR anyway. I can still picture the inspector at Stoke Newington Common doing the `broomstick test` on each bus and making a decision as to if it should set out on a trip! Many buses were abandoned by crews who either finished very late or were out of place to take on a bus later in the evening (if one was actually available) with the result that on all AR routes no semblence of normal service happened for the rest of that day!

The other failing involved the schedules department and Sunday runnings as, in the days before Sunday shopping, more miles could be achieved per bus free of traffic congestion. Whilst the average daily mileage of individual running lines was around 150 - 220 miles, some Sunday runnings pushed close to tank capacity - and a bit beyond. A schedule change in early 1981 created a `Running Line` at Mortlake, M92 on the 73`s, that left the garage at 0540 and ran continuously until 0058. On the first week of the new schedule the bus ran out of fuel at Kings Cross on the last trip. Deemed to be a `local` failing, the same M92 ran out of fuel in Oxford Street the next week. Thereafter, each `24 Hour sheet` hung in the Running Shift office on a Sunday had, in red letters, `change M92 over`. It didn`t matter when it was done though in practice it happened around 8am when passing the Queens Road crew changeover point in order not to become a problem for later.

As I said at the start, it must seem incredulous to many now that dipping a tank using a broom handle is a need that never really had to be put into practice in service work.

The Cummins engined Olympians run by Sullivans were notorious for running out, especially on rail replacement as the they only done about 6mpg compared to the Gardners which done 8mpg!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

When I started at LT in 1985 I aked why there were no fuel gauges. The answer was we know the length of routes and how much fuel is used so do not need one. It would be another item to maintain and the last thing we need is drivers returning to the garage everytime the gauge shows a quarter of a tank.

david

My bus number (if any): RML2276 M1001 T806

One thing you did notice with LT rotas was how often the first bus out in the morning was also one of the last ones back in the evening, so they really did have to do a full day on the road. Never a problem with RTs & RMs but on the 101 in East London we started using DM crew buses in the late seventies and boy you'd be sweating on one of those. If you had one on late turn is was nice being able to chat to the conductor but when you looked at the log card and seen how many rounders it had down you'd worry.

The only time you'd normally run out of fuel would be if it had for some reason missed being fuelled on the run in the night before. However a DM was definitely pushing it to do a full as day as a Routemaster. I must have run out 5 or 6 times in a DM but never in a RM. I don't know if they had a smaller tank but most people believed they were juicy compared to a RT or RM.

I remember LT looked at their fuel consumption and found drivers often left them running on stands due to the engine idling at the back being less obtrusive. With a front engine you generally turned it off as soon as you stopped.

Last time I was in Wales, Martin showed me a fuel gauge that can be installed on Routemasters. You can find his website by searching for LondonBus4Hire.

I'm having him fit one for me sometime over winter. Maybe if he reads this, he can post a picture of it. No cans or broomsticks for me anymore. Welcome to the 21st Century!!!

My bus number (if any): RCL 2259

Below is a picture of the fuel guage and a new tank that we had manufactured for Mr Cooper's bus. Ignore the picture of the tax disc I happened to find this while cleaning all the rubbish out of the cab.

The fuel guage for this particular RML was fitted in this location as there was a big horrible square hole there anyway. It could be fitted next to the dash or in its own guage housing and mounted in the cab ceiling.

I also fit if required oil pressure guages and temperature guages. I will be fitting these to my fleet for the next season. It will be handy to have a fuel guage as I don't mind admitting I have run out once - luckily not while doing a job though lol! I think a temperature guage is very handy as it could potentially save an engine.

I can supply the kits if anyone wants to do it themselves, I put quiet a lot of research into finding the right sender unit as you need one the correct depth but more importantly you need a 2 wire sender which is earth insulated as the RM is not earthed.

My bus number (if any): RML2583 and RM1357

Are you making the actual tanks yourself Martin?

Roy,

No we're not actually making them ourselves but I did get this made by the guy who's got the unit next door as he is a fabricator and has all the kit to make them.

The fact is it saved my customer money but cost me more time than if I'd had one off the shelf from Greysons.

The price from Greysons would be £330 plus VAT plus carriage which would have totalled over £400. This one was manufactured for £280 all in but then I spent quiet a bit of time testing for leaks etc.

Martin

My bus number (if any): RML2583

Hi Matt
In Reply to your email I thought it would be best to list the parts you need on here so all can see.
The fuel gauge itself
0-525-06 DURITE 12 or 24 VOLT MARINE FUEL LEVEL GAUGE 52mm LED ILLUMINATION About £40

The sender unit is a
0-525-92 DURITE MARINE WATER OR FUEL 250mm DEEP POLE TANK SENDER STAINLESS STEEL about £50
Note you must make sure you get the 250mm deep sender or it will be too long and will not fit.

They are fully insulated and we have fitted over 50 fuel gauge kits to routemasters and have not had any problems.

We always keep them in stock at LB4H Egineering, Usk or you will find them on Ebay.

Regards
Martin

My bus number (if any): Redroutemaster / London Bus for Hire Fleet

Cheers Martin,
that's great thanks!
Quite conveniently the latest issue of the RMOOA mag that came yesterday talks about cleaning tanks so that will be done at the same time.

My bus number (if any): RMF2771