Good Afternoon everyone,

Could anybody please tell me who if at all, who owns the rights to the Routemaster? More so the name rather the design rights. I am currently writing a book and would like to make reference to the Routemaster without infringing any intellectual property.

I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right directions

Thanks and regards

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML 2719

I'm 99% sure that the name Routemaster is not registered as a brand and so reference to it would not infringe any intellectual property rights. The book by Travis Elborough "The Bus We Loved: London's Affair With the Routemaster" does not have any mention of permission being granted to use the name and there are many books that have Routemaster in the title. As the bus was not exclusively used by London Transport and there is also a brand of maps with the name I don't think you will have a problem with mentioning the bus by name. To be sure 100% sure might be worth talking to Bob Bird at the LT Museum.

My bus number (if any): r

Routemaster is a registered Trade Mark of Transport for London. Below is a link to the appropriate page of the IPO website, where you can see the list of trade classes for which they hold the rights.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/domestic?domesticnum=2488233

Thanks, Charles. Quite scary. I have the text "Routemaster" and "London Transport" on my RMs and refer to "Routemaster" on this and other websites and published material. I also had some "London Transport" hi-vis jackets made.

I believe that TfL may also own the copyright for the Johnston type face.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471 & 2213. GS 17

Yes, they do! It can be licensed from the LT Museum.

Interestingly, if you look at the history of legal actions threatened or undertaken in defence of their brands, it tends to be the Museum - rather than TfL - that takes the action. This is presumably because they are the ones who can argue actual or potential financial loss, as they have the rights to sell all the various branded toys, books, souvenirs etc.

I think you've mentioned the most important point Charles - legal claims are usually based a some kind of financial loss and it's hard to see how using the name in a book would cause any loss to the copyright owner. I suppose using the font could cause a loss as they make a charge for licensing but breach of copyright of this type is a civil matter so the copyright owner has to weigh up the cost of litigation against the returns. Large scale breach like pirating films is a criminal matter

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Thanks for that Charles, the registration of the "Routemaster" brand is quite recent it would appear, certainly after I left LUL. However, in the context that Barry was talking about you can refer to a Routemaster and you can use the name on your bus as long as its a Routemaster of course.

What you cannot do is create a brand or name something "Routemaster" as detailed in Charles' link, this would apply for example to a new bus and or a bus service and as Brian says profit from the use of the name as a brand.

This IPP issue has been going on for years, it started with the LT roundel and that was registered to prevent toy and souvenir makers all over the world from using the roundel for their products without seeking a license to do so from LT, then LRT and now TfL.

Originally ex LT buses were not allowed to be red if used in public service or carry the LT name, often sold buses had the LT transfers painted out prior to sale. Picturesd from early Rallies show buses without any LT transfers. Over the years that has been relaxed possibly unofficially for buses not used commercially, and now most ex LT buses in preservation show full LT transfers, but the owners are not seeking to profit from the name, merely recreate a piece of history and as such would not concern TfL. Those RMs that are used for profit are not allowed, without a license, to use London Transport transfers. EDIT if you google Routemaster, it appears that TfL were a little slow in registering the name as a brand as there are lots of businesses and items called Routemaster out there!!

My bus number (if any): r

But there is no actual mark just mark text shown as ROUTEMASTER. RouteMaster, Routemaster, RM, RML, routemaster etc is not listed. If you check some of their other trademarks it clearly shows a proper recognisable symbol such as a roundel with the word underground or overground etc across it and underneath is the mark text. Even the "Art on the Underground" has been noted in numerous guises in both Mark and Mark text but not Routemaster.

I take that as either they are limited in what they can say is theirs i.e. Routemaster but only when pertaining to a bus OR anything containing them letters in that order is theirs. It must be the former because surely no one can trademark or copyright a word otherwise much of the English dictionary would be banned from use by now. Presumably you can write in a novel “ I caught a bus to work that morning. It was a Routemaster” in the same way you can mention a car model or that you were shopping in Sainsburys. In fact I cannot see why you cannot mention any brand name in any article or book you may decide to write as long as you do not use the actual trademark itself. Many people Hoover every day, even if it is with a Dyson, but as long as the actual trade mark isn’t used surely nothing can be done about it. The same applies to photographs. You cannot apply the roundel without permission but you can show pictures of it.

I would carry on writing the book but perhaps stop your production of any new buses you were planning to call a Routemaster

David

My bus number (if any): M1001, RML 2276, T806

Thank you everyone for your input, although i am still unsure as to whether i can use the word Routemater in the title of the book thus creating a brand! I get the fact that you can quote the word in general discussion in the book, but by using the the name in the title of a series of books, am i infringing on TFL's IP?

I think it would be better if i ask permission from the custodian of the mark, can anybody tell me who best to contact, is it TFL or the LT Museum?

Thanks and regards

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML 2719

If you're writing a book then it's the publisher or editor and their lawyers who will clarify as everything would have to be read for libel and plagarism etc etc anyway.

I would not worry, write what you want and just be sure of your facts and let those specialists who are paid to know what's legal sort it out.

As there are at Least a score of books with Routemaster in the title and LT fonts and logos used in the design and layouts of several, I don't think it can be much of an issue, after all the LTM sell a significant amount of LT related books so they/TfL profit from it all anyway.

I think David Colin hit the nail on the head in that it usually applies to a trade name or trade mark. The LT Routemaster was never registered as such not marketed as such In fact as far as I can recall apart from the prototypes and trade show launches, only the RMC was marketed commercially in publicity and I'm not entirely certain, but I think even the Routemaster Coach words were played down.

However AEC/Leyland and Park Royal Vehicles did use the Routemaster name for marketing and trading and the Northern General Routemasters were badged as 'Routemaster'. So the rights possibly belong to AEC - Leyland - and whoever now owns the Leyland rights.

I have just been looking at some old AEC adverts. (on the site I mentioned re doverite ads)



This ad suggests to me that London Transport own the Routemaster name, not AEC as they are announcing they are to build the first 850 'Routemasters'

My bus number (if any): RML2276 M1001 T806

Thank you everyone for your valuable input,

The book is now finished and will be launched in April of this year. I am still concerned about the IP rights for using the word Routemaster in the title, and i feel that i should contact the LT Museum for clarification. This is the first of a series of books and i do not want to face some legal claim along the line.

If somebody could please tell me who the best person to contact would be at the LT Museum, i would be eternally grateful

Thanks and regards

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML 2719

I think if you take a look in the shops you will find almost 30 publications with the word Routemaster in the title.

If you approach the LTM you will probably find yourself creating problems that they have not thought about...yet.

It would be better to talk to a well respected transport publisher or two first as you could end up opening a pandoras box which will cause problems that currently do not exist.

Ian Allan or Capital transport would be a good start.

I would agree with Jack's views on this matter. you are not marketing something as a Routemaster, but a history of the Routemaster bus. There is a difference.

Publish and be damned as someone once said! I doubt if anyone will trouble you, after all, we used to see the word in the press regularly until a few years ago.

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Thank you everyone for your valuable advice.

I was kindly given a contact at the LT Museum, and i contacted them directly to see where i stood with the IP rights to the Routemaster Mark. They were extremely helpful and after explaining about my books, they confirmed that they would not have an issue with my publications.

Thank you all again for your input

regards

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML 2719

Good luck with the book; there's loads out there with the word "Routemaster" in the title!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

A book(I believe called 'The Birth of the Routemaster') explained that registering the name was discussed in the fifties. I think as the bus at that stage was only being built for LT it was decided that there was no point, in any case the name "Routemaster" was already being used by a company making destination blind equipment. I am sure AEC would have registered the name 'Bridgemaster' however, as would Plaxtons with their 'Viewmaster' coach body.