This will be controversial I expect and upset many, but I have never worried about ruffling a few feathers and this does need to be subject to some long term consideration:

This Forum and the other side have seen several requests over the last few months, and another today, for various items of a 'cosmetic nature' that are ' original features' and very scarce.

What is happening to the transmatic light units, refurb indicator lights etc. etc. that have or are being ripped out of buses? More importantly when all the various mirrors, tungsten lamps etc. that exist have been fitted in their place, what is an owner who has suffered a misfortune with an 'original feature'; or even one of these refurb fitments; failing, breaking, being stolen supposed to do?

I know there are supposed to be private stashes of certain items, but these will remain - sat upon for ever and a day.

Is it not time to call a halt to this retro-engineering?

Yes, probably. It amazes me the number of people who contemplate fitting an AEC engine to their Iveco conversion. While I'm no fan of the Iveco, the AEC engine has had its day. they tend to suffer metal fatigue and eventually throw no.2 conrod out.

Also, where exactly do these people hope to GET an AEC engine in good order, all the parts for the retro-fit, the alternator, starter, aarons cable, header tank...

While you're retro-engineering, to be original, you should replace the wiring with aluminium cable, not copper!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

It’s quite interesting you mention this topic at this time as I am one of the ones which is currently refitting the interior to the (as close as I can get it) original spec.

Firstly, I’m one of the lucky ones who managed to get hold of enough of the original light fittings which I have fitted and got working. Please don’t email me and ask for some as my source does not have any more left in his private stash – they all have been fitted to buses! The transmatic lighting that was good enough to keep has slowly been given away to those who wish to carry out repairs. There are many out there who wish to retain the refurbed look of there buses. Nothing has ever gone to the skip; even the fake saloon cameras went on eBay and were obtained by an RM owner.

The original indicator ears have been sourced and refitted. This process took me 2 years to get all the correct bits. The refurbed units were given to a Bath based operator so they could be kept on the shelf as spares for their RM’s.

As for anything else such as platform handrails, lower saloon sliver handrails, chrome front grill, opening windscreens, etc, they have all been sourced over a number of years with allot of hard work and just shear good luck. I have never bothered to write lists on forums as I know the world and his wife are after these parts.

Now, as much as I prefer the as built look, there are some fittings which I will never change. For the example the refurbed brake lights and indicators are staying. The modern motorist is only use to seeing to TWO brake lights and whey they are hurtling towards the back of me on the motorway that’s what I want them to see!

As for the engine, Roy is spot on with his comments, there is no way on this earth I would even think of taking a perfectly good Cummins unit out and replacing it with something which is unknown and quite likely to fail sooner rather then later.

My refurbed interior was in such a state it was going to be changed but only when parts and knowledge was obtained. I have met so many preserved bus owners over the years that have all these grand plans but no idea of the effort it takes to source correct parts and to actually do the work. A few of these people have not got any mechanical skills at all.

Another thing I have seen a few times are those who rip the whole bus apart (not just RM’s here) in the mistaken belief that parts are available just off of the shelf. The upshot of that is that they are left with a wreck of a bus which over time (often years) they will loose interest in.

My bus, RML2344 which has kept its Class 6 since the last day of the 38’s!

Sounds like you're going about things the right way there. Sensible refurb and retro-fit.

your comments about parts off the shelf is something I get all the time, especially from customers abroad who thrash their buses up and down motorways for years with little or no maintenance, who when it breaks, want the parts "now".

I have to explain to them that these buses (usually RMs or Lodekkas) are about 50 years old and they stopped making the parts 40 years ago. sometimes my patience runs thin with them, with someone expecting a Lodekka clutch now for his bus in northern Germany, or the RM in austria with the broken flywheel and gearbox which had to be elsewhere "tomorrow".

Parts are still around, but it takes a lot of patience and waiting to find them.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

This probably applies to me, so here goes. My background in the automotive industry gives me great insight into vehicle assembly, disassembly, repair and so on. Vehicles do not baffle me and on the whole they are not complicated to dismantle and rebuild. My father has owned and runs a bodyshop since 1986 and prior to that served his time as a panelbeater/sprayer with BMC. He's restored a fleet of E type Jaguars which have inspired me over the years. I've restored many Landrovers, generally early models, series ones from 1955 and series 2As from 1964 being my favourite. I like my vehicles to look original, even though they may be sitting on brand new chassis, I say "look" original, not "be" original, as I like my vehicles "better" than original where modern upgrades which do not detract from appearance are available. My current daily car is a 1964 Landrover station wagon on a new chassis, running on LPG which I rebuilt at a cost of £9,000 14 years ago. The bits on top which look nice are of little use if your chassis is rotten. (RT owners take note).

When I bought 531 in 2005, she had had around £20,000 reportedly spent on her by Arriva, with a new Scania engine and rebuilt everything else. There is no way on Gods earth that that engine is going to be taken out and replaced by an AEC with doubtful spares availability. The AEC was a good engine in its day, but its day was 50 years ago. Date tags on everything from brake cylinders to gear selecter confirmed a recon in 2000. So mechanically it was a case of checking, and replacing as neccesary. A good service, air valves and a new half exhaust was the main requirements.

My plan initially was to keep the refurb appearance, but as parts became available which allowed me to change, for example, the grille, front and rear lights, front wings, bonnet, indicator ears etc, for not very much money at all. In fact many items were given on permanant loan by some very kind people who were fellow owners. Other parts were bought from the RMOOA Royston stores- the bonnet was a fiver, front wings a similar price I think. The yellow handrails gave way to chrome. These parts gave me the inspiration to begin sourcing other parts on a very tight budget over a period of years. Money was reserved for maintenance, mechanical work and storage, not pretification. Over 6 years I have gradually aquired trinket items from various sources without paying stupid money for, which I refuse to do. I treat my bus as my dad treats his Jags- a classic from the 60's which at over 50 years old deserves the best. It recieved the best 2pack paint I could afford when the time was due, after repanelling.

The parts removed either were given away, thrown in the shed to give away or swap later, or yes, sold on Ebay.

As for the interior, it is essentially refurb. The flourescent lights (not transmatics) are new and good. The seats are brand new eyesdown moquette. Everything has been repainted and revarnished where required. It would be nice to have tartan moquette...but then the ceilings need to be yellow, then the lights have to be changed, then you need rexine on the sidewalls, then all that is painted red internally needs to be repainted burgundy, the sharks teeth nosings on th estairs need replacing with original pyramid edging, and so on. Maybe if I win the lottery! Realistically there is nothing wrong with the new-looking refurb interior, it would seem a shame to rip it all out and start again!

There is a place for every style of restoration, from the "in service" to the "just built". It depends on taste, finances and ability. There are enough visual references out there for anyone to have a go. The problem of course arises when someone prefers to spend their money on chrome trims when the tyres are bald.

My bus number (if any): RM531

I think it's good to hear that nothing goes to waste- One Man's rubbish is another Man's Gold.

It's all part of preservation and restoration. It's often slow. painstaking and often the smallest detail is the most difficult or expensive to achieve.

There's a lot of range for the Routemaster. RT's barely changed at all in livery or detail during their working lives and what did can be done almost with a bit of paint!

RMs were the same until I guess around the time of tendering and the mess LT became.

But this bus spans generations, so it will have a different image endeared to different ages. For me I love it's early look and it's mid 70s image, for others its the end of London service look.

I think I tend to agree with those who go for a cosmetic and visual authenticity.
Less so with a mechanical originality (Although I do have a preference for AEC and Leylands) I would still think it prudent from a safety perspective to utilise some of the better upgrades and safety features that can be fitted without anyone ever noticing the difference.