HI all, As an operator with a LSP I need to meet Euro 4 standards by the end of this year, despite having a classic vehicle, but that's another story. Eminox want about 5k for a box on the exhaust, but I'm thinking, if i'm going to spend that much (and they change the rules again next year) why not put a more modern engine gear box in there instead, better for the long term.
Now my bus has already been hacked about with a cummins c series in there at the moment, so I'm not fused about it being original anymore, plus it would free up a spare gear box for other operations. I've been advised already that it would require refitting of systems like electronic throttle and the fuel system also.

I have very light technical knowledge so go easy

So what I'm after is advice/ suggestions about:

1/ What type of engine to acquire (quite happy to have a used unit), presumably non-turbo.
2/ Any caution with regard to how much power can be put through the original drive system/ dif
3/ Ideally as mentioned on one of our previous posts, it would be nice to wire it into the original gear selector (sounds like a minefield?)
3/ Any previous experiences
4/ Anything I've missed?

I remember seeing what looked like a new engine fitted to a London General/ Go-Ahead RM passing through Bexley Heath about a year ago. Maybe someone knows more about that conversion.

Thanks in advance

My bus number (if any): RML2649

Why do you need to meet Euro5? RMs are exempt from the Low Emission zone requirements. TfL made sure of that.

ALL historic vehicles (pre 1973 I think) are exempt, even if used for hire and reward.

I was one of those actively involved on behalf of the CPT collating information for TfL when the LEZ proposals were being made.

Most of the Cummins conversions have an Eminox box fitted, though my 2532 hasn't for some reason!

I suspect fitting the latest Euro 5 engine and replacement box will cost around £15-20k. Is it really worth it?

My bus number (if any): RML2532

As I understand it to be granted a LSP London Service Permit (to allow you to run a non TfL scheduled service needed for services that run for more then 1 day a week over a 6 week period) you needed an engine that is Euro 3 or better.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/lsp-explanatory-note-final-palestra.pdf
"From 7 July 2008, all vehicles operating on services provided under London
service permits are expected to be registered as Euro 3 or higher standard, or be
a Euro 2 vehicle which has a valid Reduced Pollution Certificate (RPC) and a
valid Low Emission Certificate (LEC)."

So we couldn't use RMA58 (AEC 590 powered) and RML2366 (Iveco powered) on scheduled service that had part of the route in a section that required a LSP.

If you do private hire work this is not an issue.

The exemptions for historic vehicles did not seem to be being applied to LSP's. The LSP info on TfL web site does go on about operators being green, having polices about drivers turning engines off at stands etc. I don't know if you could claim you were already green with a bus thats ligher, uses less fuel and had already been re-engined in the 90s.

Barry, is that the correct take on what your being told about your LSP with TfL?

Or Roy, do you know something about the TfL rules that means LSP can be run using Routemasters with non Euro 3/4 engines?

One assumes that the Dartmasters on the 9h and 15h will be getting Eminox to Euro 4, tho once again TfL make the rules so will the heritage routes be being excluded from this policy? But most of them were only Euro2 to start with?

Can a 90s Cummins C be trapped via Eminox to a Euro 4 standard then?

- Re-engine route with new gearbox
I would take a ride on a Dartmaster on the 9h and 15h and see what you think of the whole Cummins B and Allison package. Mac Tours (Lothian Buses) did their whole fleet. They lack routemaster sounds and in my experience the Allison gearboxes seem to all be setup different and try changing gears when they shouldnt. Makes for a very jerky ride. I know Tim B complains that you have to take your hands of the steering wheel when going over bumps because of the way they fitted the engine in.

Sure more technical people can add feedback to the above setup, tho it would be nice to find a suitable engine that could: cope with a low RPM speed, allow the flywheel and wilson boxes to be retained, was not very loud and was Euro 5 and maybe made by a company called AEC ;-)

Regards

Adam

My bus number (if any): RML2366 + RMA58

I see no reason why an "authentic" RM Gear selector could not be retained to operate most gearboxes. It may involve some hidden relay trickery but it could be done.

I asked a similar question recently regarding the replacement of obsolete parts such as gearboxes with a more modern unit but received no suggestions from the experts

David

My bus number (if any): RML2276 M1001 T806

It says "they are expected", not "they have to".

I don't think the Dartmasters are at Euro 4 or 5!

Meanwhile, I'll put the question to the CPT technical department.

I know some Surrey operators have managed to get Gardner engine Metros to Euro3, it may be possible to do this with an AEC, but I've never tried. the Iveco should be easy, fit a new eminox. Far cheaper than re-engineing.

This highlight the hypocrisy of the TfL LEZ regs. you can run a free service using class 5 RMs all day, every day, if you want to. you can have a bus rally every day if you want to, but run an RM on a registered service every day, even once a day, and there's all sorts of problems.

Bu tagain,

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Hi Adam
yes, you have the correct take. This is what tfl have told me and apparently eminox say yes they can get my smoke euro 1 up to 4 standard. Not so sure it will go any higher.

My bus number (if any): RML2649

I attended a meeting of the Kent & Medway group of the CPT and there was a talk by a chap from TfL regarding the new LEZ requirements.

To answer the questions in the earlier post, I raised the matter of historic vehicles. He stated that pre-1973 are exempt from LEZ requirements and this would continue. I then raised the matter of historic buses on licenced services and he said that the TfL LSP department made the rules for local licencing and if they say you need Euro 4, then that's it, despite the anomoly. sorry I can't be more helpful than that. i did try!

There was also a talk from Dinex who make the exhaust and LEZ equipment. The consensus is that it is not possible for the older style engines with mechanical fuel injection to reach Euro 4, even with the latest traps and filters.

Other exempt vehicles are: all military vehicles, certain showman's vehicles where the vehicle forms part of the ride (should please Carter's Amusements), off road vehicles and a few others, bet deffo everything pre 1973 regardless of use.

Compliance with the current rules is now about 90%.

One thing that may be useful for fleet operators, once a vehicle is certified, there's nothing to stop you removing the apparatus and fitting it to a second or third vehicle if you want to ave money; just don't get caught!!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Hi chaps,
I thought I'd just add a comment to the ride you can experience on a Marshall's refurb. as mentioned in Adam's post.

Having driven mine (RM 848) over quite a few thousand miles since 2007, and also had the privilege of driving a number of other RM/RMLs in that time, I can report that the Marshall's example I have gives a very smooth ride, and no jerky driving.

The only jolt I ever get is when the bus decides it needs to select 1st gear with a heavy load uphill. Overall I have experienced much more uneven and jerky rides with the occasional RML that possibly has some minor deficiency or other. RM 848 certainly gives me a better ride over bumps and manhole covers than other Routemasters I've driven in the last couple of years.

As stated by Adam, the current regs appear to allow a Euro 2 engined, RPC & LEC equipped vehicle, to be used on an LSP. My RPC was allowed to lapse following London service, and it took a good while to regain it, but we did in the end. You won't be surprised to hear that different people at VOSA had different ideas on how to interpret the rules on this subject. Eventually, with persistence the right combination of officials and testers were found and the RPC regained.

My bus number (if any): RM 848

When did RMs get a modification that selects 1st gear when in auto? Do you mean 2nd or have these Marshall's refurbs a different set up?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Brian

Marshall refurb with Cummins 5.9L engine has the Allison transmission which is electronically controlled, so no comparison can be made with an RM and the standard SCG box with auto gear control. Ed

My bus number (if any): RCL2250

Thanks Ed, but do the Marshalls refurbs really self select 1st gear? Do they start off in 1st?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Brian

I have driven a number of bus/coaches with the Allison transmission, and I always assumed they started off in 1st gear, there isn't an option to start in 2nd if drive is selected. With regard to the Marshall refurbs, they were fitted with 2 different types of Allison transmission, not having driven one though I would have thought the T series in drive would start off in 1st. However they are supposed to adapt to the way a vehicle is driven, I always found them to be set up in such a way that the engine always seemed to be revving more highly than was necessary and so the noise level was unacceptable at times. Perhaps all the hills down this way made it seem to operate like this, with downchanges which were wholly unnecessary at times.

My bus number (if any): RCL2250

"I always found them to be set up in such a way that the engine always seemed to be revving more highly than was necessary and so the noise level was unacceptable at times. Perhaps all the hills down this way made it seem to operate like this, with downchanges which were wholly unnecessary at times".

which is probably why modern buses only do 4mpg compared to a Cummins RML which does 10/12mpg!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

My bus number (if any): RML2366 & RMA58