That could be the situation if the latest EU directive gets the go-ahead. Latest proposals under asbestos control regulations will make it illegal to sell or even give away any vehicle which contains asbestos. This is NOT a scare story, it was communicated to me by John burch of the Confederation of Passenger Transport.

He is in contact with Colin Billington of the FHVC as we only have until 26th November to get representations to Brussels.

John said the regs will do exactly what my headline says. This will of course have an impact on almost EVERY historic vehicle as most have asbestos in the head gaskets. Other obvious sources are brake and clutch linings, brake bands in gearboxes, maybe insulation in front bulkheads, heater pipe lagging (prolific on RFs and early Reliances), and underfloor insulation panels on RF engine bays to name a few.

John says what the CPT and FHVC is trying to get is a derogation for the UK as we seem to have more historic vehicle than anywhere else, he reckons some 7,500 buses alone, let alone other commercials and cars.

My other concern is the amount of historics across Europe. Whilst i don't have figures for the number of old British buses in Europe, I know the historic movement is under-estimated for the mainland. So all could find their vehicles made worthless overnight.

Be warned.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

It is not a scare story. It is more serious than you all think because its not actually a proposal - its more than that.

It applies to ANYTHING (houses, buildings etc as well as vehicles)that has ANY type of asbestos in

There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes to sort it out, the HSE are involved and on board with the actions to derogate the legislation.

It will all fall down if it is turned into a political football (with enormous ramifications)

Mark

My bus number (if any): RM1414 sort of

Title of the thread is a bit misleading as there isn't ANY asbestos in a Routemaster or any post war LT bus come to that. Only asbestos from new was in brake shoes and that was removed from LT's brake shoes years ago.

Never seen any asbestos protection on any RF body parts either. There are many products that look like asbestos and are often assumed to be asbestos due to age of fitting, but with a lot of these products only laboratory tests can determine if it really asbestos.

Only "vehicles" I know of that had any asbestos were railway carriages with compartments where it was built into the walls between compartments.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Non asbestos brake linings only became mainstream in second half of nineties and there was a derogation to allow the use for older vehicles to around first half of 2000's once they had been banned.

Flywheels have asbestos linings in them

Engine firewalls have asbestos in them

Earlier gaskets contain asbestos (not just copper ones either)

Mark

My bus number (if any): RM1414 sort of

Thanks for the replies there gents. I must disagree with Brian there as there is asbestos on RF water pipes; I've already had "someone" tell me about the stock of these I have in my depot, plus the load of RT/RF linings, and the brake bands clearly labelled "asbestos", and the GS clutch plate, the asbestos head gaskets, the exhaust bandage that a lot of people used between the manifolds.

Hopefully this will go the way of the proposal to lag all exposed steam pipes on locos a few years ago! I suspect by the time this becomes law, most f us will not be here!

One well known consultant who relines my brake shoes reckons that if he has asbestosis, he'll be gone by the time he finds out! He's now well into his 70's.

Maybe if others hear of any progress on this, they could post it here.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Mark, what you say is certainly true for some old buses and lorries, but not the Routemaster. LT stopped using asbestos brake linings many, many years ago, there was an article in the RT/RF Register from Colin Curtis about the problems this brought about. If any RM has them they must be very old or fitted after LT service.The fitment of such linings was banned altogether in 1999.

There is no asbestos in the RT or RM engine shields, only insulation in the RMs is a bit of glass fibre wool in the bulkheads. If there is asbestos in RF water pipe cladding/lagging then it escaped the notice of London Transport's Chief Medical Officer and London Buses work place health and safety risk assessments. Like I said earlier with many products the only way to tell if its really asbestos is to have it tested, it cannot be just looked at!

No idea about GS clutches, Roy, probably the same as brake shoes, old ones may well an asbestos content,

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Well, I reckon it's probably safer to assume it IS asbestos! Personally I'd rather not sniff it to find out. Maybe most of the RTs and RFs with the stuff were withdrawn before the Lt medical officer found out??

RM46 has asbestos rear linings. I've still got a few left in stock too.

Thanks for your input on this.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Asbestos and the diseases it propagates should not taken lightly.
I watched an ex girlfriend's father die a slow torturous death as a result of asbestosis over a period of 2 years. His exposure as an architect was low but just high enough to be at risk.

Some RMs had a layer of asbestos fitted on the cab side between the engine and cab sandwiched between panels. I have only seen this once as LT were very concerned about asbestos from the middle 1960s and were actioning it by the 1970s.

Ironically. asbestos brake linings were used on all Underground stock as long as possible to use up stocks. I hate to think what the level of asbestos dust is in the tunnels.

It is Black asbestos and Blue asbestos that are really lethal, White asbestos and sealed asbestos is far less dangerous but the particulates from it are still highly carcigenic. Blue asbestos was used in the 1938 stock and was all removed from withdrawn and service trains in the early 1970's

After all these years, no way should anyone be driving a bus around either in preservation or service with asbestos brake linings and other accessible asbestos items like exhaust joints ought not to be around either.
The substitutes are equally effective and more so now than when first deployed.

Let's hope that they do not get round to Lead as Chiswick Pink contained lead and a number of other really toxic nasties. Hence the true story of Park Royal painters rarely making it to retirement.

RMs did not, and do not have any form of asbestos anywhere in the body, not in the bulkhead or engine shield etc.
Yes asbestos is dangerous and its presence and removal when detected unless totally encapsulated must be left to experts. Many people of our age know people who have died from "asbestosis" and the other diseases it causes, their occupations are widespread, one man I knew when I was the Safety, Quality and Environment Manager for the Power PFI was a cable layer and he inhaled it daily working in narrow cable tunnels for the LEB. As Jack says it's a horrible disease and often a long and painful illness precedes death, its predicted that deaths from asbestos related illnessses have not yet peaked.

On a lighter note!! To allay fears, there is no asbestos dust in tube tunnels. There was where the 1938 stock was used, but due to the moist nature of the air in the tunnels any dust from brake linings fell to the ground or lodged on shelves, it doesn't fly about in the air. The only place where significant deposits were found in the ballast was between Hampstead and Golders Green. This section of line was closed and the tunnels cleaned and the ballast removed and replaced by specialist contractors many years back now. LUL also constructed a special train from 1938 tube stock that hoovered the tunnels all over the system. Regular analysis is also undertaken of dust in tunnels to ensure the continued safety of people who work in them, the main constituent of tunnel dust is human skin! One thing London Transport and its successors were particularly good at is looking after their staff and the Occupational Health section under the Chief Medical Officer was a front runner in improving the safety of the workplace. There are still places on LT where asbestos is present, mostly in concrete troughs that carry cabling in tunnels, there is some in station buildings and its encased and removed wherever exposed as it is currently at Victoria.
The spray painters at all LT works were provided with adequate PPE to prevent inhalation of paint mist. At some establishments it was not provided or the staff thought is was not macho to use it. Only having been to PRV once I have no idea if their painters were exposed to any toxic substances, but I do remember in the paint shop buses were hand painted even up to the SMs and as RT owners will know, before the RMs panelling was not routinely primered on the inside part. Did PRV spray paint panels prior to use as Aldenham did?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I always thought that the white paint used inside the used ticket bins contained asbestos as a degree of fireproofing if someone put a lit ciggy in the ticket bin. Having looked at the flaked paint very carefully it certainly aroused my suspicions, I'm sure someone will know for sure.

We have been here before, the "A" debate. Lets put this into perspective. As a member of IOSH and heavily involved in health and safety at a leading car plant for 15 years I learned a lot about it. A considerable part of my NEBOSH and Advanced health and safety training and examinations revolved around it. It was the wonder material. Quite simply it is everywhere. You can not escape from it. Every single person is exposed to it in a greater or lesser degree at some point. Been on holiday to Cyprus? Until recently it was mined there in opencast quarries. The fibres are airborne in the dust. How old is the wifes ironing board? Chances are there is a slab of it to put the iron on. Remember banging the asbestos mats together in science in school to create dust? Do you have pre 1990 artex on your ceilings? Yes, that contains asbestos too. 1970s green plastic floor tiles? Yep, its in them. Done any work on your fireplaces? Yep, it was routinely mixed into the mortar used in fireplace construction. And then there are the asbestos gutters, downspouts etc fitted to many 1930s houses, and also the common asbestos garage roof. And that is before you get to vehicle use in brakes, clutches and gaskets. Remember that while it is illegal to sell, it is still not illegal to fit PROVIDING YOU ARE USING UP YOUR OLD STOCK which you have not bought or sold since the ban came in. There was a stack of asbestos RM linings which were taken off my hands as part of a parts haul I aquired not so long ago.

Providing you don't mess with it, sand it, drill it etc to create dust it is relatively harmless. The problem occurs when it is broken or damaged and the fibres are released. A single fibre can cause lung cancer. The fibre works deep into the pleural sacs in the lungs, and as the victim breathes, it causes a scratch, and a scar, and a scratch, and a scar, and so on. Pleural scarring begins and this leads to mesothelioma and lung cancers. In many famous cases, the wives of asbestos workers died before the worker. The worker wore the PPE, the wife shook out the dusty overalls before putting them in the washing machine.

The dangers today are widely known, people can take precautions. The poor sods of 20 years ago did not know the risks, they are the ones suffering now unfortunately.

If you suspect it may be asbestos, treat it as such. PACM's (potentially asbestos containing materials) should be treated with caution if they need to be disturbed. Copius wetting is the easiest way, but you need to be aware of the dust remaing on the floor (or wherever) when the water dries. If you ever get the chance to view a piece of asbestos under a microscope, its fascinating, the fibres look just like little needles with sharp ends. Which is exactly what they are. BE SAFE.

My bus number (if any): RM531

The white paint used in the GRP ticket boxes on RMs was certainly fire retardent, but there was never any suggestion it contained asbestos. Even if it did which I doubt very much, as Steve says unless its drilled into or sanded there is no risk at all of the fibres being released.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Interesting to note that the consultation document on the web makes no mention of vehicle maintenance personnel being in a category 'at risk'.

I wish I'd read this posting before i sanded the inside of my used ticket boxes yesterday

My bus number (if any): RML2613

Aargh, run awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

If you wear a dust mask when sanding there shouldn't be a problem.

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.