I was doing the second session of my Driver's CPC yesterday and the subject was Fuel Saving Driving. Two of the things they were pushing were block gear changing and changing up at the earliest opportunity on the basis that more power was available at lower revs. My bus is a Cummins refurb and I wondered what people thought about this. I wondered about the effects on the gearbox and differential. (Fuel saving isn't especially relevant for me as the mileage I do isn't very high)

My bus number (if any): RML2302

I certainly change up as soon as I start to lose revs when driving RTs, no point in poodling along in a high gear, that does not do the gearbox, engine or diff any good and leads to overheating. If you change up, bearing in mind with RTs unless its on a steep hill where a "stamp" change is necessary to keep revs, its a two footed change, ie into neutral, rev up and change, you can always change up again if the engine is racing.
Its a long time since I was type trained on an RM, but what we were taught if using semi automatic was to move the lever to the neutral position then count to 2 and change up, that way it's a smoother change.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Take what is said on a DCPC course with a pinch of salt, many of the lecturers are complete numpties and have little understanding of their subject. Trawl through some other fora to see what rubbish is being preached as gospel. I went recently on an HGV DCPC safe loading of vehicles etc course. Lots of info on how to climb a ladder and wear hi viz, but nothing at all on how to secure a bulldozer. Nor any mention that you risk possible prosecution if the load inside a curtainsider is not restrained other than by the curtains. In fact sadly not a lot useful at all. Obviously the whole idea dreamed up by a committee.

If the man said that more power was available at lower revs he is talking through his backside. More torque is available at lower revs and less horsepower.

You will probably also be told to use the cruise control because it will use less fuel. I am quite convinced that your eyes, Brian, are a better judge than any ECU of what the road conditions ahead are like.
A better idea if the vehicle will allow, is to use the system as a speed limiter and regulate the throttle yourself. In an emergency the natural reaction is to move the foot to the left onto the brake, if it's not on the throttle but elsewhere....

If the vehicle has a turbocharger boost pressure gauge, which some do, then keeping the boost to a minimum uses less fuel. Often this means a lower gear, higher revs and less than full throttle.

I too was astounded at the idea of `block changing` as encouraged on these SAFED courses (safe and fuel efficient driving) where an experienced driver is taken out on an empty coach and told by an Instructor who has no coach driving experience that `this is the way to do it`. Really? Does a full seated load and perhaps a lot of luggage not dictate that the method of driving might be a whole lot different to when empty? And why are vehicles built with sequential gear changing expectations if these`new `Instructors seem to think that it`s ok to miss a couple of gears out?

A local coach firm that I have much association with put drivers through this SAFED training last year and obviously had to allocate a manual change vehicle in order to do this. Just three of their fleet of thirty are manual. So few vehicles in fact that a good proportion of their drivers don`t actually have a manual license in common with an increasing trend at bus and coach companies all over the UK. If the vast majority are going to be driving automatic transmission vehicles with limited or no opportunities to influence sequential gear changes I`m struggling to understand what the point of this exercise is - especially when this particular style of training can only be applied to a select few who are probably of the age and experience where instinctive reaction to changing circumstances is a fact of driving anyway. Are we to assume that manufacturers are flooding the markets with vehicles so fuel inefficient that we now need a new regime of training to be able to drive them? I think the opening lines of Roy`s post say a lot....

Block changing is only really effective when you have 8 or more up to 16 gears and all that depends upon road terrain anyway, even the auto controlled ones block change at times, also on trucks not all the ratios are as evenly spaced out as you think.

The only bus I block change on (when empty and road terrain suitable) is our 1956 Regent 5 with pre select and a 6LW and low ratio diff, set off in second and go to 4th, the torque is there at the bottom end and it only does 32ish flat out.

Mark

My bus number (if any): RM1414 sort of

I agree totally with Mark, block changing is mainly for multispeed transmissions or for the occasion where traffic conditions or gradient dictate that the best course of action is to skip a gear.
These guys seem to think they are telling us something new. But I'm sure practically everyone has done it in their car - steam up to a left turn and drop it into second to pull away, rather than taking third on the approach and second once round the corner.

From what Brian says about RT down changes, the LT way was to rev up in 'neutral' then ? (as if double declutching a normal gearbox. Or stamp change if needing to maintian revs. I haven't worked this one out yet but this leads me to wonder: this 1st method obviously produces a smoother change and matches the revs to the road speed, but is it not increasing wear on the gearbox brake bands which are now having to stop an even faster spinning annulus?

To Mark:

I think I have seen pictures of 1414's lower deck and the ceiling does not appear to be Sung yellow in them, is this merely the film reproduction or is it another colour?

I have to agree with Roy and Neil G, there is so much tosh being preached these days in the name of rule and regulations emanating from the EU. Block changing on old vehicles with hardly any power to pull the skin off of the proverbial pudding, let common sense and experience prevail. As mentioned most buses, coaches and lorries are automatic in any case nowadays, with for instance transmissions like the Volvo I-Shift selecting the gear ratio appropriate at the time.
Roy makes an interesting point about ' increasing gearbox brake band wear ', and with a Routemaster in manual mode timing is everything when making a change of gear, each one having different characteristics dependent on general wear and tear of a particular
vehicle.
Oh well it all keeps someone in employment, and grumpy old men in conversation with one another.

My bus number (if any): RCL2250

It's the same with the current driving test and the advanced driving test.
When I learned to drive part of the test was use of gears to slow the vehicle and keep it under your control.
Much to my surprise this is now a fail.

Someone has decided that it is more efficient to wear out the brakes than a gearbox and this technique is no longer relevant.

2 years ago I took the advanced drivers course and test. Same thing. I was losing points for using the gearbox. A habit of about 2 million miles and hard to break.

I then found that if I took the test in an old car, I would be able to use the gearbox as the brakes cannot sustain constant use in the way a modern car can. So I took the test in a Morris 1000 van and passed easily.

But ironically the examiner said that had I taken the test in my day to day car, I would have failed.

It's all about understanding the limitations and peculiarities of a vehicle and it's era is part of that. At least the IAM understood that. I just wonder what would happen if I turned up in a Morris Minor to take the DoT Driving Test?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Hum, some good points above as I'm being approached by providers of the CPC. It's a neccesary evil which I am taking with great reluctance, having had a pcv licence for nearly 40 year.

What on earth can they hope to teach me about driving that I don't already know?

Block changing may be ok in modern cars; try it in an old bus with a crash box and it's almost impossible.

In the old days, brakes weren't as good as they are now, hence the old teaching to use the gears to slow down. Modern thinking is that it's easier to change brake pads than change a clutch. One reason I prefer automatic cars; certain others in the household are not usually in the right gear at the right time, and that increases fuel consumption.

As for fuel consumption in an automatic bus or coach, the driver usually has little or no control over that, so the "teachers" are talking rubbish.

I didn't learn to drive buses at Chiswick, but I was taught by those who HAD been Chiswick trained, and they passed on a wealth of common sense and good techniques. with those techniques, I can still get through the worst London traffic quicker than most just by using road space properly.

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Thank you very much for all the advice and comments gentlemen. You can imagine there was a certain amount of dissent amongst the more mature drivers present, one of whom had learned to drive buses in an OB in the 50s....

The practical fire evacuation - "Out in 3" - session in the afternoon, unfortunately with that hated feature of training courses role playing, was interesting. Hope none of us ever has to deal with that situation in real life.

My bus number (if any): RML2302

My bus number (if any): RM1414 sort of

Interesting point made about slowing down while under assessment by a driving examiner. With the exception of the Telma retarder, which is I believe fitted to some Dartmasters, auxiliary braking devices attached to the engine or gearbox require high engine revs to operate at maximun efficiency; therefore needing a lower gear to be selected. Even without such a device fitted, surely the old mantra applies that "one should descend a hill in the same gear one would climb it".

The excellent Volvo I-shift transmission, which is ECU controlled, will automatically down-change if the brake is applied while over-running against the exhaust brake. I can't say however that I am a fan of its coasting facility which selects neutral on the over-run if the control is left in the wrong position.

hi guys knowing many of my friends have now done this drivers cpc i think it fair to say that you have all missed the point. all i will say is 8 hours a day for 5 days.really !!!!.

My bus number (if any): rm2023 2097 RML2388

Having just been approached by a number of CPC training providers, I find that few, if any, come from the bus industry! Some are on what I would call a good screw from the government, trying to sell me a CPC for £50 if I do an NVQ in bus driving as well!

I really don't have the time or inclination to do an NVQ as I'm currently having to do one for my taxi business, and that is a load of tosh that any sensible 10 year old could do. WTF do these bureaucrats hope to achieve apart from introducing another stealth tax and more paperwork when Cameron says he's cutting down on paperwork!

I'm seriously considering giving up bus driving, after all, I'm 60 this year and a grumpy old man now. It's too much hassle. Pah.

Rant over!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Tim

I respect your view that we seem to be missing the point, however having participated in some of these sessions I have rapidly come to the conclusion that it is merely a money making exercise. It really does not matter how much training is given to some drivers, they will just carry on with their bad habits as before. A number of companies employing drivers have the means to monitor not only where there drivers are at any time but how they are driving. Moreover the best of drivers whilst under the attention of for instance the 'Drive Green' system employed by probably the largest public transport company in the world, fail to register consistently good results on their driving skills. The reason for the latter is simply because of the many varied conditions under which drivers work, coupled with the inability of the system to be adjusted equally for each vehicle in a fleet. I have driven a number of different coaches which give different results for driving around a roundabout for instance, in some it is necessary to literally crawl around, because if not that little red light will flash for the next 5 minutes on the dash, and it will be recorded as a serious incident on the record available for the employer online at all times.
The question of a safe driver and who qualifies as such is entirely down to the individual and always will be, and that applies to the drivers hours rules and vehicle safety inspections as well.
The best training I ever had was back in 1994 when as the owner of a RR Silver Spirit at the time I undertook the official RR chauffeur & owner drivers course at the factory as it was then at Crewe, for a whole week, which included theory and practical exams encompassing advanced driving, skid pan, and manoeuvering exercises.
I hate to be negative about the CPC, however I just cannot see how it will really make a difference to experienced drivers who care about what they do. Naturally it will have some positive benefit to those at the learning stage, but the reality of professional driving might just blunt that early enthusiasm.

My bus number (if any): RCL2250

It was not meant to be a cash cow for anyone although that is perhaps what it is now. A "qualification" in bus driving was brought in a long time back in response to a barrage of complaints about bus drivers particularly in London where the privatised companies were accused of failing to monitor driving standards. As with any course, if you approach it with an open mind you may actually learn something, if you know it all already then you at least have the T shirt!!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

....nods in agreement with what tim and Brian say above, also what the training provider more or less admitted to me yesterday!

I was not taught to drive buses at Chiswick, said by many to have been the best driving school in the world, but was taught to drive by those who HAD been taught to drive at Chiswick. I'd like to see a CPC instructor try to teach THEM anything!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Brian

I am sorry if I came across in my comments as someone who knows it all and has the 't shirt', I have attended numerous courses over the last 40 years including both driving and technical courses in my main career before semi retiring, and have enjoyed most of them complete with actually learning too. Perhaps I am becoming cynical with age, and reading too many books like ' The Way I See It ' by Alan Sugar, truly grumpy old men territory.

My bus number (if any): RCL2250

I doubt that any of us could claim to know it all. Digital tachos?

Grumpy old men, possibly, cynical definitely!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Paperwork is everything these days!

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

I have seen in the past an LT sevice information bulletin which lists 590 head gasket part numbers.There are I think eight numbers which relate to standard and three oversize gakets. There are also on this list another complete set of gaskets and numbers for gaskets with a "gas path". These are similar to the other gaskets except for a groove which allows a blown gasket to release gas to the side of the head as a warning that there is a problem.

So, if we take the driver CPC, we can qualify for blowing AEC head gaskets. I think you've put this on the wrong bit Roy! New technology, pah.

3 oversizes on AEC gaskets as you said. Maybe someone will move this to the right thread..

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.

Just thinking about some of the people running the CPC courses, are they the same people in non-jobs who were doing HIPS for estate agents a couple of years ago? another good idea that came to nothing and benefitted no-one except the HIPS agents and the unemployment figures!

Oh sorry, they're all NVQ providers now...

My bus number (if any): RML2532 Keeping Europe's Routemasters on the road.