Here`s RM 1954 at the Bus Sales site at the former AEC Works on July 22nd 1984. Withdrawn due to a cracked B frame, it had been robbed of various parts at Streatham Garage before being towed to AEC. With no realistic future prospect it was immediately marked up for collection by PVS who arrived during the night, as was usually the case, but presumably had second thoughts about taking it away until the extent of the B frame fracture was established. The front wheels are off as retaining them at Bus Sales was normal procedure when a bus was to be towed away and, judging by the rear wheel, the half shaft has been removed. Looking at the base of the platform pole, an attempt appears to have been made to drag the bus using a chain around it. But for whatever reason the planned removal of the bus was aborted and it was left right in the entrance to the main compound preventing any movement in or out. The Sales Department engineer went ballistic when he saw it as no means of moving it from there existed. I don`t know how it left the site but it did the next night.

I only knew of one example of a rear end lift on a disabled RM and that too was one with a split B Frame. A particularly severe example going by the chalked wording applied to the front of RM 193 to leave nobody in any doubt.
`Keep off` was scrawled in big letters!
The crew that towed it from Walworth must have had doubts about the task ahead as several phone calls were made in the days before to ascertain exactly where they had to take it and how and where they would leave it. Nobody had ever done this before and they were also insistent on moving it in the lighter traffic of a Sunday night which was equally unheard of but that`s exactly what happened. It only stayed on site for a few days in May 1985 before being collected by PVS who presumably also rear lifted it having had some practice with 1954 once they`d sent the appropriate truck....

I once saw an RM at Leicester Forest East services on the M1 being towed from the rear by PVS. I don't recall the bonnet number but it had fixed upper-deck windows.

My bus number (if any): RM 912

Further to my original post some months ago, here`s a picture of RM 193 which had been withdrawn due to a B Frame failure. The most severely obvious such failure I`d ever seen. Others thought likewise.



Generally the early stages of a B frame fracture were picked up at garage level as a small crack in accordance with detailed inspections made on certain rota examinations. A chart existed to show the most likely points on the frame that cracks could be found and, if so, the bus would then be collected and driven to Aldenham for a B Frame change which was usually done within a few working days so that the bus was quickly returned to service. When detected from underneath in the earliest stages there was no visible difference from the outside. RM 193 is therefore of greater concern as the back end almost looks like an attempt at `low floor`! Were early signs of cracking missed? Did the frame split badly whilst in service? Seems to have lost a lot of oil from the R/N/S hub but the half shaft is in place. Could it initially have been towed conventionally back to the garage if it failed in service with the hub not properly secured after? The bus isn`t exactly in good condition and the bonnet plate is missing. (Not guilty!)

No realistic chance of towing the bus over a distance from the front and, as previously mentioned, it was known in advance that the bus would arrive at the old AEC site as a rear lift. The Sales Department engineer had suggested that I had my camera handy for the arrival as rear lifts were extremely rare. But my chance was scuppered when it transpired that the arrival would be late on a Sunday night which turned out to be May 5th 1985. The picture was taken the next day and as there was no point in keeping the bus it was collected on May 7th by Rollinson`s on behalf of PVS.

I reckon there`s a good chance, Chris, that this was the bus you mentioned given that the combination of fixed front U/D windows and a rear lift wouldn`t have been applicable to many buses.

Neil, when you say B frame failure, do you include the suspension?
To me the B frame is the "chassis frame" and it would be a massive failure to cause the bus to drop like that at the back. Looks more like it has air suspension! Is it one that kept it?

If it's not air suspension then it must have one or both coil springs broken. RMs often came to Aldenham for rear spring replacement as getting at them "up the tube" was not possible without lifting the rear, and removing some rivets. Equally, sheared half shafts also came in for changing if they could not get the pieces out!

If it was towed the half shaft may well have been removed and not tightly replaced which would explain oil seepage.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Yes, it was a `massive failure` of the B frame. Hence all the points made in the text I wrote last night and in the original post last September. Chalked onto the windscreen - B Frame fracture, do not move, keep off; Phone calls in advance of the arrival of the bus at the Sales Department forewarning of the state of RM 193 and being emphatic about having the space to leave and unhitch it without having to turn around; The hitherto unheard of moving the bus late on a Sunday night such was the perceived trepidation of the task; The need to go for a very rare example of a rear lift; Experienced engineers saying they had never seen anything like it. Surely I`ve made it clear enough that this was something very different. And when it arrived at AEC there was a great deal of curiosity about it but nobody was going to crawl underneath to have a look and putting it over a pit wasn`t going to happen.

I don`t know if it had air suspension. It`s a possibility as it is one of the batch originally fitted. When it was realised that some of this batch still retained air suspension into the 1980`s, I and a few others starting doing visual checks just out of interest. I know of a few that were found but not all were checked and 193 was one such. But I doubt that collapsed suspension would set in motion the extreme actions described as it is possible to drive an RM in such a state - albeit very slowly. I know, I`ve done it many times on RM 116 when the hydraulic suspension failed - which it did often and it never came home on the back of a tow truck.

Sorry Neil but your post suggests the rear end drop is due to a B frame fracture. That is a rear suspension failure maybe air suspension will not lift, but either way it would make a conventional tow impossible.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

We had an RML that had a sudden B frame failure at HL.

We all gathered round the bus when it was towed into the depot rear end. It was only at the depot for a couple of hours and it was towed at night straight to Aldenham. It was back in just a few days with a new frame. I think it was RML 2666 but honestly cannot recall for sure.

What I can remember is the bus was just a month or so out of Aldenham having just been repainted and still smelt of paint inside.
There was a bit of a heated discussion between the HL management and CRS management. But I was not privy to who said what to whom.

We all had a good look as this was almost unheard of. The engineering management were keen to make sure that all staff knew what and why they made checks on the B frame and what the catastrophic consequences were. In short they had not seen this first hand either!

It was not so much a crack, more a break, possibly caused by some long term poor road surfaces on the Uxbridge road in Acton and also in Southall. The very heavy loadings and the poor surfaces led to several RMLs suffering small cracks but a lot of suspension problems. Not as many though as the Merlins we had which went through suspension parts like wildfie!
After this episode, LT got very heavy with the local authorities and the GLC and the roads were sorted very swiftly.
The incidence of B frame failure and spring failure reduced to zero very soon after.

The bus did look like a failed spring case. Very low on it's rear wheels, but the diff was slightly out of line and the propshaft had also distorted but not broken.

It was driven onto the pit very slowly and there was a debate as to whether it could be driven slowly at night or towed.

As my shift had ended I did not see how they moved it to Aldenham.

Repaints didn't get any mechanical attention at Aldenham at all Jack.
Washed down, rubbed down, painted and out. Theory was body didn't need 3/4 year overhauls and the garage's rotas inspections would pick up any Wear and Tear stuff for Works Attention.

On overhaul the B frames were thoroughly inspected for cracks and distortion.

Those RMLs were new in 8/67 and not overhauled for well over 7 years, only having a repaint around 1970. Despite the known lower saloon floor weakness, foot bracket fractures and corroded panhard beams!

After the second cycles were done after 14 years on the road, the period between overhauls was greatly reduced for RMLs.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

It was quite common at bn for b frames to fracture or sometimes completely crack and the bus would be sitting on the wheels. Fun job to do on pits at bn. .good ole days

My bus number (if any): 1083

In the latter days Tony, where did they crack? Was it under the coils?

It would be useful to know as there are a lot of RMs out there that have not had a good inspection for at least 6 years now. WE used to change a lot of panhard beams, there must be a lot of RMs out there with corroded beams as well.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

When the selection of RMs were gathered at Cambridge for the impending refurbishment at Marshalls, it was a motley collection . Some ex- preservation in presentable condition, and some almost completely derelict examples.
Only one though, failed to make the refurbishment grade. That was due to a seriously corroded floor between the longitudal seats and the box that secures the panhard rod. This also had an alignment problem probably caused by the diff casing moving out of alignment

It was deemed way beyond economic repair. Although the rest of the bus was in exemplary condition when stripped out. The bus survives albeit in two halves in Hanwell.

Moving on to more recent times the South Devon Railway's RM had a similar problem. However, as their rather good website shows, replacement and manufacture of a new component is not as daunting as perceived.

Most of the bad corrosion was found on buses that had worked on outside London on heavily salted roads and not received the same degree of TLC that LT was once able to give.
The RMLs at Shepherds Bush for example, still looked like new underneath just a few years before run down & withdrawal. Silvered and clean and easy to spot problems.

Buses that remained in London do generally fare better as the incidence of salting roads is less as are the road speeds.

Most preserved buses do not stray out into these conditions and those that do have to meet more rigorous standards than then, so it is less likely to find a horror show than before.

Metal fatigue and creeping damp ingress are the main enemies now.

Normally by the mountain rubbers Brian . I've seen that side of the frame completely snapped. Of course the flitch plates do flare quite bad too..I've seen some real bodged attempts of silicone put in the gaps of the flared plates covered in crap to try and hide the damage. Something to pay real attention too. owners thinking of buying a routemaster should have this examend very carefully. As repair is an eye watering figure

My bus number (if any): 1083

Thanks Tony, I just remembered there are some examples of B Frame corrosion on the ROOF website here:
http://www.rmoof.co.uk/RM13%20April%202008.htm

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs