In the early days of RM withdrawals there were many instances of sales to countries around the world - but usually as individual vehicles. Belgium was an exception and had quite a few but for quantity in the 1983 - 1985 period Canada had most. RM 1242 and RM 1651 are seen at the Bus Sales site at the former AEC Works on September 23rd 1983 having just been selected for export to Canada.

As you say, quite a few went to Belgium. I've worked on those that went to Bus Prophils in Charleroi, one of which recently broke a diff, another was subject to an arson attack in the south of France. The other one I've worked on recently has a bit of a happier life with deZigeuner in Diepenbeek as a preserved bus along with his fleet of Bedford OBs and SBs. Not forgetting the Northern RM with London Ceremonie Wagen in Antwerp, happily still in service.

My bus number (if any): RML2532 and others

Only two RCL`s were sold abroad direct from the Sales Department. RCL 2255 went with RM`s 1242 and 1651 (already pictured) plus RM 1548 in a batch to Canada in late 1983. RCL 2252 also went to Canada in 1985.
RCL 2244 nearby went to North`s for scrap (along with three other RCL`s) soon after this picture was taken on Sept 22 1983.

The RCLs hat went to Norths (along with a number of RMs) were for dismantling and return of parts to Chiswick, particularly fibre glass items. As far as I know, very few RM parts were requested from Norths despite them really dismantling rather than ripping these buses apart.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585, (M 961, M 271 - both sold) and several RTs

Norths were one of several firms that had one of the `pilot` scrappers just before mass RM withdrawals began in September 1982. Then, as storage problems became an issue by October `82, a batch of 50 RM`s went to Norths under contract to return certain, but not many, parts. I went to Norths a couple of weeks after they took the batch into stock in the hope of getting some pictures and I have to say that the guys there were very friendly and said I could photograph whatever I wanted! They also said that the RM`s were the most difficult buses they had ever tried to break up and in the time it took to destroy one they could have done three less robust types! I have several pictures taken over the course of an hour or so of their attempts to smash RM 1297 to bits.

In Oct `83 they took another nine buses, 5 RCL, 1 RMC and 3 RM of which one of the RCL`s came immediately back to London to pass into preservation after which just three more RM`s went individually to Norths up to June `84. Thereafter all sales for scrap went to PVS - even if only on paper for buses were often moved around the various adjacent yards but especially Rollinson`s and Wigley`s. I was able to access all of the Sales Department data regarding dates sold, to whom and (in the case of a non-routine withdrawal) the reason why the bus was withdrawn such as accident damage, B Frame split, fire or whatever. I have this detailed information up to the end of 1985 covering the first 840 Routemasters to leave LT.

Hi all,

Just to confirm what Neil explains, I too went to Norths within a couple of weeks of the first 50 buses arriving.

The guys there were very helpful as indeed PVS are still to this day.

It maybe hard to believe but up until the closure of the Norths business there were still stillages packed and waiting for collection by LT. Of course this wasn't going to happen as LT didn't exsist by this time.

Andy

When we went there on an official visit to check that the right buses had gone to North's, the man in charge thought we had come to ask why parts had not been sent back to Chiswick and said if that was the case we could F-Off as LT had not made any requests save for the return of an U/S Emergency window and a driver's mirror that a Driving instructor had requested and as Andy says, there were stillages of the parts LT had stipulated all sitting there ready for collection. We then got snowed in and had to stay overnight near Sherburn.

One thing we did find was that of the 50 or so buses there, they were not all Leyland/Simms combinations as had been documented by RSE Buses, three were AECs and many were in excellent condition post overhaul or repaint. We told Chiswick about the AECs and they were not interested!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585, (M 961, M 271 - both sold) and several RTs

Ten of those fifty buses were AEC engined! And whilst these had been out of service for a while only a couple had got to the stage of cannibalization that might justify their early exit from LT. Many buses withdrawn under the Sept 4th 1982 changes were in good condition for there were simply more to be taken out of service than could be fulfilled by just taking the weakest ones even allowing for AEC`s to be included. Using the reasoning of blitzing the minority class of Leyland / Simms would perhaps seem sound except that there were some bizarre instances of that policy making little sense.

For example, the buses that replaced some of Mortlake`s Leylands were in significantly worse condition than many of those in general that went for scrap. Good condition Leylands were withdrawn when derelict AEC`s were put back into service. At Stamford Brook, Leyland RM 1893 was withdrawn six weeks after an annual recertification for no obvious reason and Leyland / Simms RM 1341 had a full overhaul in 1983! The document produced by Rolling Stock listing the 200+ Rm`s to be withdrawn on 4/9/82 contained many errors and made many wonder if they really did have an accurate picture of the fleet.

Such wanton crapping of perfectly serviceable buses isn't new. When the RTs were going to Wombwell diesels in the early 1970's I saw buses there with axles that had been overhauled weeks before going for the cut. We found out many buses hd to have new running gear fitted just to make them suitable for sending oop north. Many had new batteries, a boon for us preservationists at the time.

This also explain why Cobham had a good stock of nearly new RT front axles!

I'm sure there were many people on LT at that time who really didn't give a f*** about what did and didn't go for scrap; it wasn't their money.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Did you physically check the buses Neil? I did. Although all 50 were not there, when we went in December, a few had already been dismantled. Can I ask in what capacity you went to Norths? LT business or just enthusiast?

They should ALL have been Leyland/Simms, RSE Buses put forward the candidates based on their records. Leyland/Simms was the sole criteria for choosing the buses to be dismantled. Simms equipment was obsolete and so it was decided to reduce the number of RMs with that equipment and maintain stocks with the equipment collected from the dismantled buses. As a number of RMs were also dismantled at Aldenham,one can only surmise that sufficient material was gathered from those buses to not require any material from Norths.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585, (M 961, M 271 - both sold) and several RTs

The criteria for withdrawal selection changed when it was realised not enough Leyland/Simms were available to get rid of the surplus to the breakers. It then changed to the CoF certification and dates of expiry whether they be Leyland or AEC. This explains why excellent vehicles disappeared from the garages to be by old dogs which had longer certified dates on their paperwork.

My bus number (if any): RM1001

Wasn't aware the criteria had changed Mike, the first batches of withdrawals to Norths and Aldenham should have been Leyland/Simms,which is what we went to Norths to check, (and that the right buses had been taken from London!) they were certainly joined later by long term withdrawn buses but I believe these were scrapped as opposed to "dismantled".

Some very good buses went, Mortlake lost a number that were replaced as Neil will remember by dross from Southall.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585, (M 961, M 271 - both sold) and several RTs

The Leyland/Simms edict did not seem to make sense as as Neil has mentioned. Excellent vehicles went for scrap and some real problem buses came in as replacements. Some of which were on the pit almost every day.

NB had several Leylands, 1284 & 1420 spring to mind and they were seldom off the road for anything other than routine. I liked these two, both made a great noise but both also pulled well when heavily laden. They were often diagrammed for the heavy peak workings.

I had heard about the amount of really good overall buses going to scrap and how bemused we were about the replacements but several fell through the net. GM had one on the 19 and 11 for a very long time after the cull
it even carried a Leyland badge on it's heater grille. A kind of two fingered salute to some of the pen pushers of a few addresses passed by the 11 !!

Hi Jack,

GM last Leyland 2015 was the bus also 2099 at PM had one on the Radiator grille (cant think how that got there..)

Andy

Brian
Taking the main points from your last couple of posts, am I reading this correctly? That: you went to Norths to check they had the right batch of buses but not until several weeks after they started breaking buses and thus missed several of the AEC`s that you reckon shouldn`t have been there in the first place? I can assure you 100% that there were several AEC engined buses there in that batch of fifty. Nine in fact - I mis-counted earlier when I said ten. They were: 175, 186, 358, 420, 1028, 1309, 1410, 1426 and 1532.If you have a look at Ian`s Bus Stop you`ll find these as disposed of to Norths in Oct `82 and none are listed as Leylands - which would be shown if applicable.

You asked about the circumstances of my trip. It was on my own, by train, with my camera in the hope of getting pictures for my own enjoyment. As the buses were not at the main Sherburn yard, a long walk from a rural station was required so it would have been a long way to travel to be thrown out of the yard immediately on arrival! Thankfully it was so different. The guys there couldn`t believe I`d gone all that way just to get some pictures and took me to their mess room and made me a cup of tea! We had a long chat about RM`s which appeared to fill a few gaps in their knowledge and they made me very welcome. Some buses had already been broken and of the AEC`s I`ve mentioned only RM 175 features in the pictures I took. Not that it really proves where it is (other than being with other buses of the batch) nor does it show the engine. Perhaps I should have gone as an auditor......


Now, i`ve had a rummage in a cupboard and found the official document relevant to initial RM disposals. It`s dated 25 March 1982 and I quote in full:

`With reference to the Vehicle Disposal Meeting which was held on 22nd February 1982. A recommendation of the meeting requested a survey to be carried out to highlight RM vehicles which would go to W.A.S.P. (Works annual service programme) between August 1982 and July 1984 having old type Simms or CAV electrical equipment and Leyland engines (EN52) fitted.

The Survey has now been completed and 580 vehicles fall into this category, 269 of these vehicles having both old type electrical equipment and Leyland (EN52) engines.

A decision has been made that the 269 vehicles with old type electrical equipment and Leyland engines will be disposed and all major accidents and cannibalised buses which are in garages. To reach a total of 330 vehicles, selected vehicles will be taken from the remainder of the batch of 580 buses.
Please find attached a copy of the survey showing bonnet numbers effected.`


So as Mike said, the initial list did include AEC`s to make the total up to the desired amount. But the list of 580 buses is poorly handwritten and in month order, not numerical and at half past midnight I really can`t be bothered to extract much detail from it! But I can see on it some of the AEC`s that were in the batch at Norths. An AEC on the list (1152) was subsequently overhauled and came to Stamford Brook just as RM 1341 (also on the list) did. There are only 253 Leylands shown instead of the 269 suggested - and some buses are shown twice. I see it as `a plan of what was thought at the time but changed as circumstances dictated`. Such as in August 1982 when planned inter-garage transfers for September 4th were much adjusted to put a certain type of radio into Thornton Heath Garage `to be used on routes passing through Brixton`. Does anyone know what that was all about?

Neil
I asked about your trip because when we arrived at Norths, Mr North junior asked where were from, we said LT Stores Audit and he assumed we had come to ask him where the parts were that were supposed to be returned to London, if so we could "F Off" as he had had 5 visits by LT staff and nobody had told him what was to be sent and to where. The only item he had been asked to send to London was a Driver's mirror by an Instructor and he then showed us the parts he had been asked to keep from the one or two buses he has broken all ready to go on pallets.

Stores Audit had responsibility for the control of materials in all Main Stores but we also had the task of physically checking the existence of all LT's capital assets as part of the verification of LT's accounts, the depreciation of those assets being part of the accounts.

We were asked to go to Aldenham and Norths to check that the correct capital assets had been withdrawn and sold. We were collected from Doncaster station by Norths' people.
One of the reasons for the checks was that there was a large number of buses involved in the September service changes, some RMs going to other garages for use or storage, some to Ensigns for storage before passing onto Aldenham or Norths.

Whilst checking that Norths had been given the right buses, by physical checks of buses and stillages, we also checked that the criteria for disposal we had been told ie Leyland/Simms had been adhered to, we were not made aware of any change to that criteria by RSE Buses and we quickly found 3 AECs RM 175 being one of them. WE reported this back to %% Broadway and were then told no cation would be taken to recover the AECs

We were not aware of any other criteria for disposal at that time. As far as we were concerned either the wrong bus had been disposed of, someone in the garages or RSE Buses had been sloppy and/or RSE didn't really know which buses had which engines.

It's interesting that on the handwritten listing of buses for disposal from RSE, there are a number of alterations with vehicles being crossed of, it's a copy of a handwritten list with numbers crossed through so hard to be sure which numbers a lot of the crossed out ones were., however, only RM 1410 of the AECs you list has been marked as such on the list, by whom I don't know. It's also listed as being at CF which it wasn't!

Bearing in mind what Lionel Moss told Alan Bond about the way the A frame number plates were haphazardly put on the modified A frames done under a special programme at Aldenham, it would not surprise me at all if RSE Buses did have the wrong engines listed against some buses or garages had changed the engines over, it's not hard to do so and forgot to tell RSE.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585, (M 961, M 271 - both sold) and several RTs

I am pleased to say that RCL 2252 and 2255 remain in service with Double Deck Tours, Niagara Falls. A picture of RCL 2255 (now DDT no. 1) is on the front cover of DOUBLE DECK TOURS LTD, Niagara Falls - A Fleet History published in October 2012 by Buses Worldwide. This book has photographs of every Routemaster operated by DDT plus RT, RTL and RTW buses. Copies still available!