From July...

http://leondaniels.blogspot.co.uk/

Steve

Any idea what is likely to happen to them ?

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

its sick i am sorry its a shocking thing to do

i have told tfl my views but in a nice way not like before

also i have started a facebook page to save them its called save the 9h

I think the big drawback with both of the heritage routes was their length and where they actually went.

The 15H just didn't encompass enough of the 15 route for me. Sending it from Trafalgar Square onto Oxford Circus would have put more shoppers on it.

Meanwhile, the 9H, started on part of the route of the 15H, so already the enthusiasts along that stretch are split between the two routes. Then the journey to Piccadilly and onto the Royal Albert Hall, is so short, it's just not worthwhile running anyway.

For me a route that has length and takes in all types of traveller is key to a heritage route. So my preference would be for a single route, over a longer distance.

My bus number (if any): RML2561 (Well, at least the bits I managed to save!)

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Not had a chance!

I'm away and it's difficult to cut and paste on the iPad.

My bus number (if any): RML2561 (Well, at least the bits I managed to save!)

Below is Cut and pasted from an email received and I have to say, just like when they tried to remove the Routemasters completely they (TfL) are missing the point.

The Routemaster as mentioned below is a must see for almost everyone who comes to London, certainly it's the one thing that my clients and overseas based colleagues want to do - ride on one and for the cost, that's small potatoes for the business and tourist pounds that they generate. An awful lot cheaper I would say than the Royal Family and you can get to see one, ride on it and take your own pictures of it.

I would advocate a better route, the 9 was never fully thought through but to not have them at all is far from prudent.

The Borismaster is a good bus which is a far better successor than a lot of the stuff that replaced RMLs, but it is not an icon, nor is it a must see and do as suggested below. It will be a long time before that happens. It is incomparable with the RM, but favourably comparable with many other contemporary types.

Posted from an email:

When people whinge about the cost of the Royal Family and cutting back the pomp and ceremony, we are quickly reminded about how much they bring in to this country in terms of tourism and trade.

Anyone living and working in London is probably more aware of this on a daily basis than anywhere else on Britain.

But a sight and a ride on a Routemaster is now as high on the list of 'must see' and 'must do' as all the key attractions to `London.

It's not just tourists but visitors here on business.

It really is still the London Icon and one that anyone can afford to have a go on or just enjoy looking at.

Leon Daniels says the £1m cost could be better spent elsewhere. But will that £1m spent elsewhere generate the kind of money that tourists bring? It could be the reverse and lose far more than £1m. All of which is indirect.

Leon Daniels also says it is to happen in July.
Very odd as TfL have launched a consultation as it is "only a proposal" Oh really?

So here's the link. Circulate as widely as possible.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-9

Subject: Bus service proposal: Route 9

Dear Stakeholder

We are proposing to withdraw the journeys on route 9 that operate with traditional Routemaster buses and would like to hear your views.

Details of the proposal can be found online at: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-9
Please use the online questionnaire to provide your comments by Friday 7 March 2014.

Yours sincerely


Peter Bradley
Head of Consultation Delivery
STEngagement@tfl.gov.uk
Surface Transport
Transport for London

You haven't read the blog by Leon Daniels have you....,,,

Now that I have read it, I haven't really felt that I need to change my comment that much! Ok, the route may have changed slightly, but other than that, I have nothing to add, or subtract!

My bus number (if any): RML2561 (Well, at least the bits I managed to save!)

I wonder how much TfL "could" save by not having Steam on the Met, not forgetting the cost of getting the Beattie Well Tank along for a jolly..

Keep the heritage RMs, change the route to make it or them more attractive, that's what people EXPECT in London. People I work for abroad are surprised to hear they've nearly all gone!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

The Heritage fleet is in pretty good condition and has been remarkably good value for money simply as a service bus that can be used by all. But as an icon that day after day, hour by hour come rain, snow or sun, there is barely a section of both routes that does not have someone or other, pointing a camera at them.

That alone says it all. If thats not enough to underline it's importance in London then there would not be shops, stores, cafes selling all manner of Routemaster images from postcards to luggage. That is what an icon can generate and no other city has anything near it.

The value as an attraction to London must make them invaluable in terms of generating ££££s to the economy of London.
TfL must be completely deluded if they think the "new" Routemaster will assume that role. Indeed it may -if it lasts 20 plus years.

A full mechanical overhaul with a few euro4/5 upgrades and a cosmetic restoration giving the buses another good ten years would be both affordable and cost effective and far more prudent. TfL are not looking at the bigger picture, as ever they spurn the very assets that endear them to the world.

I would doubt the figures quoted that it takes £1m to keep a relatively small fleet of Routemasters on the road. Whilst I don't doubt Leon's ability and knowledge, and I must be grateful to him for teaching me a lot about tendering and commercial bus operations about 20 years ago, I suspect the £1m is over-inflated.

The RM fleet IS a tourist attraction. Would people question the cost of the upkeep of other historic monuments which alone may not generate direct income? Places like Green Park, Piccadilly Circus, Buck House, the list is endless. It's the amount of spurious income generated by these that really counts. Shut down Trafalgar Square, it costs too much to keep the pigeons out!

The cost of running an average London bus route with 12 buses used to be around £100,000 a year, running 0500-2400. I know costs have gone up and on an RM there's a conductor to pay, but on an RM route there's no capital asset to buy or lease, maybe a peppercorn rent from the operator to the owner, so we're not looking at the usual lease figure of about £2k a month. Maybe one of the Newmans could comment on current bus operating costs?

Alter the routes by all means to make them more attractive but don't get rid of the last of the RMs for purely economic reasons.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

The heritage routes receive a £1million subsidy towards their running. They cost more than that to run.
The way TfL costs running bus routes embraces all costs, direct and indirect for their operation. Uniforms, garage premises maintenance and an element of the rates/fuel/telephone etc bills for the operating offices goes into the mix!

Keeping that number of buses on the road, maintained, staffed and managed doesn't cost peanuts.

TFL like all the public sector is having to make huge savings, I doubt it gets much revenue directly from the Heritage buses, so economies have to be made somewhere.

As RMs are not being withdrawn altogether and a lot of "bus people" saw no use for the 9H can't really see what the fuss is about.
If running RMs in London is so profitable as being suggested, why doesn't one of the commercial operators replace the 9H? Answer, they couldn't afford to even if TfL agreed.

Steam on the Met, if it still runs (not getting confused with LU's 150th anniversary celebrations?) went a long way to paying for itself through revenue directly generated, it appears the 9H and 15H don't but the 15H serves an operational purpose.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I don't think anyone said it was profitable.

It can though, be seen as any profitable and successful large business would, as a 'Loss leader'

It's what brings in the customers. In this case the huge volume of tourists and visitors that generate income for the whole of London's economy.

Plus the fact that the buses do get patronised and used for their intended purpose and therefore do generate income. On the 15H it is packed on almost every journey from Tower Hill. I use it from Monument very frequently by biased choice obviously but there are times it is standing room only.

The 9H is and was not the best choice of routes. Dreadfully congested along much of it and not as good as it could be. Although recent improvements in traffic flow have made it marginally better.
A museum link route would have been better or part of the 11. Or a bridges circular route. Better to create a better route than none at all and a bit broader with maybe the odd RT.

TfL stopped marketing the routes very early on and yet they feature in almost every overseas tourist blurb worldwide.

They may well be subsidised but that subsidy is probably one of the few that generates an indirect return. The subsidy comes from GLA taxpayers who are also the beneficiaries of the economic benefit to London - which also gets shared across the UK.

There are far more subsidies for far greater amounts that yield no benefit or return whatsoever, so this really is small potatoes.

I think we are getting close to the realms of discussing TfL here and so suggest the news is accepted with thanks from Steve, and if people don't like it they take it up with TfL and give their reasons for objecting to the withdrawal as mentioned above.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Thanks Brian. I agree. Thanks to Steve Newman for spotting the news on Leon Daniel's Blog. The details of how to take part in TfL's consultation are given above. I think the reasons Leon give for the planned withdrawal of 9's make sense. I'm glad to see the 15s are safe ...for the time being. If, having read the points made in Leon Daniel's blog and earlier in this thread, anyone can think of a suitable alternative route for the RMs currently allocated to the 9 route, feel free to make a case for it and submit it to TfL.

Just in case people haven't seen the blog or the consultation invitation here are working links

http://leondaniels.blogspot.co.uk/

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-9

For now and with thanks to all the contributors, I'm locking the thread.

Chris Dobbing

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17