It is clear that the lettering on RMs has changed over the years. I wondered if there was a definitive guide to the text, size, colour and font of the all the lettering applied to RMs over the last 60 years?

You can see the lettering on RM1699 on the RmOOF website and links to a scanned image of a London Transport drawing showing where the lettering should be in 1984 here.

In the past I've used some lettering from this roll which I think I bought from the Routemaster Association some years ago.



You can also see ROUTEMASTER lettering on transfers and vinyl which are different as well as a selection of T keys!

All very confusing.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17

The only "guide" would be to match up each issue of the drawing with the relative BP numbers.
There have been a few additions over the years but not that many overall for 50 odd years in service.
Apart from ownership changes, London Transport becoming a roundel and then London Buses roundel, plus the awful paper and vinyl signs for No Smoking in various seats then No Smoking altogether and for position of fire extinquisher etc, those I can recall that involve lettering or changes to it include:

ROUTEMASTER deleted from above the stock number: (By the way, the spacing between RM and 1699 on RM 1699 is too close)

Illuminated advert switch sign and "Give up this seat to elderly" etc added.

The black border of the gold stock number transfers was made narrower.

White stock numbers

To carry 64 etc in black small lettering moved from above ticket box to below it in UPPER CASE.
"Passengers must not give starting signal" and "Passengers must not travel on the platform" changed to lower case.

Sure there are others as London Buses adopted some industry standard safety vinyls.

Only book I have seen on design styles positions, scales etc was for London Underground Ltd's notices and signs, not aware anything similar was done by London Buses apart from the drawings.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

When the Haynes Routemaster manual was being compiled and the pictures being taken ( of which there are a great many more) enough for about 5 more volumes!! I had this idea to do a Routemaster Style book and indeed started to photograph details and acquire references.

The idea is to have a point of reference for every LT specification for every period.

This would entail paint colour type references and what equates to the current day equivalents

Visual details ie grille type and external modifications. Internal details

With a fresh page at each change

Positions of all signage

and all livery changes.

I then thought this should go beyond LT into the LRT and TfL era as well as all the other fleet operators of RMs

I then thought that it would probably be better and cheaper to produce a graphic style guide rather than photographs and just use photographs to show exact correct details, like fonts and weights of fonts some of which were hand designed originally and are not available on computer based print and typographic fonts.


A fair bit of detail has been collated but it is a lot more than I thought initially and it has to be right.
But as was mentioned to me it could be more than a handful to do in the very limited time I have to spare at present.
That proved to be wise words. It does take time.

It is becoming apparent that many superb and thorough restorations are falling at the last hurdle over minor details like typeface fonts, positioning and even colours. It's understandable as time passes, memories fade and people are far flung working on projects often alone or without a point of reference

For example: on the picture Chris has posted the KVS number plate font differs from the font used by LT and the GPO The correct 6 is a curled 6. A very minor detail but one that does make a noticeable difference if trying to get that LT period detail.

But it is little details like when did the above the upper deck emergency door 'Emergency Exit' sign change from Black to White and then to green stickers?
The fonts for number plates and the changes in size, the Numerical gold and white fonts and the differences between them and the current LT font which has been altered a few times over the last 4 decades.

The information is all out there but maybe the time is right to have it all in one place as a point of reference.

At least if there were a definitive style record it might curb some of the catty remarks often heard at rallies over what is correct and what isn't.
Of course it matters not a jot to those who want to be individualistic and do whatever they want to their bus which is their right and choice.

It's more intended as an accurate record and aid to those who want an accurate depiction of a chosen period in what is a considerably long timeline.

What do others think? Is it worth doing?

Not sure it is worth it Mark, given the number of production RMLs that have Routemaster over the stock number and cream bands you could be wasting your time.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I think that it an excellent idea, and well worth doing.
I have a few RM transfers from the 60's and 70's that I can photograph.
I think so that the information is available to everyone it would be a good idea to put it on this site.

Regards

Rob

My bus number (if any): RM7

I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but wonder given the information out there that is already ignored and that old style transfers and absence of some may not be suitable or even legal for PCV buses, would its use be only for the preservationists and restorers?

Somewhere mainly thanks to Neil G I have number plate transfers from before the size reduction and the old style heavy lined gold transfers, I can scan them if it will help. We have just had a load of vinyl stock numbers made for our RTs in the old style.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I`m happy to help with scans / photo`s of transfers if needed to get this idea into reality.

I have a number of transfer sets including a number of sheets which contained a complete set of the small tranfers and some London Transport gold transfers along with some very rare gold London Country side names in upper case. Quite willing to get them photographed. Most of them have a date of manufacture.

My bus number (if any): RM 912

Brilliant Chris. It would be great to have the photographs available. Please could you include a clearly visible ruler in the shots so that measurements can be made. I'd be happy to put photos, dates and fixing positions on the web.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17

transfer, undated



vinyl, undated

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17

If the ones on RM 254 are correct, the style and font of this transfer particularly the "S" are wrong.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Are the titles for the above pictures in the correct place?

Are these two differing transfers or the same one reversed? They seem to differ but it might just be the scale difference.

But it does (excuse the pun) underline the subtle differences.

The LT fonts do have differing weights and characters. Like the R and the S. These have been 'tweeked' over the last 40 years as has the weight of the font.

The most obviously noticeable is the number '1' which now carries a tick on the top upper left which I think was an unchecked error whereas the correct Johnston '1' has a chamfered top.

Top is a varnish fix transfer, bottom is vinyl lettering, labels are right.

It's tricky getting it right! Thanks for all the help, on and off forum. Currently finalising lettering for 471 & 2213 with several other owners also on the case!

My bus number (if any): RM238

I have started to upload some pics on flickr of the varnish fix transfers that I have, as far as I know they are all original.
If any look wrong please advise.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30266527@N02/sets/72157641581707364/

Regards

Rob

My bus number (if any): RM7

i got a white roundel at home i need to stick on something fast cos its showing its age its saying about hot vanish for it

It might be a good idea to label that the transfers are viewed from the back. Otherwise people might copy the very thin black outline round the gold that shows from behind.

Phil.

If it's any help, Terry Hastings done a survey on this subject for the Isle of Wight Steam Railway regarding the standard Southern Railway lettering. He concluded there wasn't a standard at all! I'd suggest the same applies for most of the LT period too.

For example, a lot of Riverside buses had their numbers painted on, and other "transfer" touched in by the garage painter. The "Silexine" RM back in 1970 was touched in using standard LT colours mixed to match after accident damage!

I already have the complete fleet number and letter transfers scanned, as well as both sizes of number plate numbers and letters, and a load of other stuff. These were taken from Cobham stock and scanned by Paul, late of PG signs who was a bit of an expert on the subject. I use these scans whenever I have stuff made,

My bus number (if any): RML2532

hi chris and all the top routemaster is as chris says varnish fix but the vinyl one below is too thick in font ,if i can help i have diagrams of where the transfers go including some sizes on them and a vast amount of varnish fix transfers in stock from when we started over ten years ago supplying varnish fix and then vinyl transfers ,i have emailed you off roof chris if needed ,i think the diagram on the roof website came via us from steven wood
many moons ago

My bus number (if any): RCL2238,RT,RF,RM

hi rob all are original the M had a thin black outline used in the 1970s for the DMS and for a short while on the RMs before continuing to the smaller M later on
Emergency fuel valve was the later one used on RMs bp 14334 the earlier one was smaller bp 12642 and bp 15044
the five standing one BP14403 was one of 2 for the RM where as the RT had 4 types bp nos available if needed

My bus number (if any): RCL2238,RT,RF,RM

Robs items on Flickr raise another issue, there is not just a border thickness variation on gold stock number transfers, there are colour variations as well, older transfers much darker gold. Even when RTs/RTLs new in service this could be seen.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

See what I mean? The more one finds out the more complex it gets!


However LT were on of the leading lights in the UK for corporate uniformity and style and it was adhered to rigidly.

So much so that it still endures now albeit more on the Underground than on the buses.

Variations and local initiatives were usually stamped out once discovered.

The only exceptions are during the 70s when standards nosedived due to the industrial unrest and acute shortages of almost everything.