Dear Members and bus owners

Currently there is no or limited amounts of King Pins and Front Shock absorbers available for Routemasters.

Therefore the Routemaster Association are looking to get batches of 2nd/std & 3rd/std King Pins and front Shock Absorbers manufactured.

However the minimum batch numbers to get these items remanufactured is too costly to them done without pre-orders.

So if we are to get these items remanufactured again we will need pre orders. For this to happen I firstly need to know who needs what and what quantities. Once I know the numbers required I can then get a price out to everyone. At this point we would then be looking for actual orders from all interested parties.

So can you please contact me via sales@routemaster.org.uk , letting me know if you want to order
• RM Front Shock Absorbers and quanity
• RM King Pins – with size 2nd/std or 3rd /std and quantity
Once I have received these number in I can then see what estimated numbers we are looking to order and get a price out to everyone. I will only be looking at people to comit to an order after I can get a price out. If you want to have spares available then the association needs to you help out in making these orders happen.

If you have already raised an interest in the past few weeks/months for these items can you please make sure you drop me a line again to ensure that I have you on this data base of interest.

I look forward to hearing from you.


Regards,

Mitch

My bus number (if any): RMC1462

Two pints Mitch, why aren't standards being made as many RMLs will have thes? Second, people will not know which size king pin is needed unless they have an old A frame with markings on it, they also may need a 2nd (or 3rd) where a standard is now fitted.
Also, I lent a standard pin to a firm in Rye in Sussex who were supposed to be making them from the pattern, what happened to that initiative which was supposedly based on a number of RMs needing standards?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

AFAIK the firm in Rye are still working on what you gave them Brian. I'll call them tomorrow if I remember!

They've recently made clevis pins and a set of RFW window handles for me!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I didn't have anything to do with the company Roy, I just offered a standard pin for use as a pattern and that was used as far as I know and then returned.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

This is where communication and joined up thinking has to come to the fore and egos and rivalries need to be set aside.

It happens all too often in vehicle preservation and classic car groups.

To reproduce high quality components casts a lot in tooling and production. Duplicity can cause a huge financial risk to become a disaster and plunge subsequent initiatives into the too high a risk zone.
It's not a new issue but it is one that needs to be resolved.

The same issue is when people go to the length if sourcing and reproducing only to find someone has a huge hoard of said component and then dumps them on the market. Again.Making the risk too risky.

However if Mitch is doing the 2nd and third only then it must be because someone else is doing the standard as seems to be implied here.

But it would do everyone a favour if these things are made a little more clear so we all know who is doing what and where.

The internet is almost the perfect tool for this.

I do hope to that TFL are invited to this as they can be an important player in these initiatives while they still have Routemasters

It shouldn't be too difficult for the firm at Rye to tool up for other standards. I understand they've already sourced the bushes to go with the pins. I believe the difference in the standards is where the taper lies along the length of the pin.

BTW, RM pins can also be used on RFs and a lot of Reliances.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I quite agree, but I think Mitch is moving in the right direction but a bit of clarity here would help.

Probably far better now to deal direct with the actual manufacturer than a supplier.
That can bring the unit costs down a bit but also ensure the specifications are up to scratch or indeed better.

Easier said that done Jack, try finding out who does Imperials brake stuff for them, or the king pins for Davy.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Right, I've just spoken with the company at Rye, they've made a batch of 20 standard pins; it's taken a long time for them to find someone to harden them to spec but this has now been done. they also need to know the dimensions of the top bush as they only have a worn one to go by.

Once they have that, the set will be ready to go. This batch has been ordered by PSV Partsmaster. Quite what the retail price will be is not known at the moment. As you will appreciate, making a batch has brought the cost down a bit, but the outlay for 20 is likely to be quite high compared to the days when they were produced in bigger batches.

I understand that other standard can be made, but these will have to be in batches of 20. The company doe not want to deal with "I just want one"; if someone wants to sponsor a batch of 20 I'll be happy to pass their details on.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I understand the point.

However if commercial suppliers are, as they have been implying for quite a while now, no longer interested in stocking and commissioning manufacture of certain parts then it is no longer a protection.

Nor is it acceptable for the market to be controlled by just one or two and customers charged a kings ransom for parts that are already costly.

Secondly, we have the internet and machining businesses all over the place looking for new lines of work.

However it seems that a manufacturer has been sourced and it maybe the same as the one Mitch has sourced.

However, two sources might be a good thing as if one goes then another an step in.

I suspect TfL may be the client for the standard batch as the Marshall Vehicles had all the suspension renewed to standard. At least that was the specification.

But my feeling remains the same. There is an association which was for owners and operators and they have made some good progress in stepping in to fill the gaps that are emerging post mass service.

By having one umbrella group co-ordinating parts production whether commissioned by the association or by individuals or other groups, this should ensure faster production and turnaround, and faster availability and the cost savings should allow a small stock to be built up.

It's a tall order but as I said before by setting aside differences, and good communication, this could have great benefits to individual owners groups and operators.

I do hope so

I would certainly dispute the contention that there is any attempt by any of the suppliers to control the market and charge a King's ransom. I had many conversations with Harry Prew-Smith when he was organising the manufacture of various parts. I particularly recall his extremely low opinion of the Association, who wanted everything to do with the actual commissioning done for them, but were happy to take a quantity when all the hard work had been done. I also recall the tremendous amount of time he had to devote to the projects and the very large sums of money risked for parts which might not necessarily sell out. All this done with the added risk that the owners' grapevine might reveal that Joe Bloggs was now selling the same, look-alike product 20 pence cheaper - and of course everyone would now be beating a path to Joe Blogg's door.

So, if one has 20 parts sitting on the shelf for however long (two, three years maybe for the last two to go): it has taken 16 hrs of research and phone calls to get the specification, a pattern, and to find and visit a manufacturer willing and able; the outlay has been £4000, just how many is one being expected to sell before a profit is returned... 20? 19?

The batch being made in Rye for PSV Partsmaster is, I understand, for general sale by PSV Partsmaster. At least he's had the guts to proceed with an order that others have been talking about for years.

The same will happen with foot brake valves which Imperial are prepared to have made IF there's sufficient interest.

Which reminds me, IO had a batch of GS rear shackle pins made about 25 years ago; luckily I sold most of them but there's still 6 sets on the shelf, so there's not much return on getting obsolete parts made.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I am interested in front shocks, kingpins and foot brake valve, as I am so far away from the UK, it would be invaluable for me to have them handy if required.

My bus number (if any): RML2353, MB 306

Just had a look at the RM Assoc website -- anything you want available, as long as you can wear it! fleeces , baseball caps, T shirts, ties even that enthusiasts' essential, a backpack .... all with a nice little motif.

Vehicle parts? mostly nil stock or contact us.

That's how an association raises capital to invest in parts, storage and events.

As clubs go it's cheap to be a member and it's what people are prepared to put in that make sit work.
Just like any other club.

Its in a transition from a club offering contact , advice and the odd event to something more like the MG Owners club which has a very strong parts division that has filled in the gaps with harder to find parts.

Harry has recently passed away, others are retiring and others with great knowledge have also departed us.
Who picks up the baton?

A few have taken on producing parts and digging into their own pockets but with limited marketing and outlets.
Some have the know how and ability to get the parts produced but not the ability to despatch and meet deadlines.
Or how to keep on the backs of manufacturers - a skill in itself.

That's when it goes awry and someone else produces the same part. Then it's Handbags at dawn.

So some sort of one stop shop/outlet and good co-ordination with a not for profit mandate ie what is made simply covers costs and reinvested into more parts would be possible.
Also to act as agents for those who can produce parts to widen their chances of clearing stock and minimising their financial risk.

That's what a club or association can do and some do it really well.

This is a really small niche market , so very little will ever be dirt cheap or practicable, it will never be big enough to generate income to provide full time staff or a parts dept unless a merger or partnership with other clubs or even a full time car club becomes possible. It may be the only option to keep costs down as supply and demand and the natural way of a business is to maximise profits- which could throttle it's own market. Hence the desire of some current suppliers to call it a day with RM parts.

But I think the RMA are going in the right direction albeit slowly.

It's a shame Mitch has not yet replied to the issues raised here or mentioned this on some of the other RM type sites. So Hurry up!

As Chairman of the Routemaster Association, when I read comments like I have just seen here, words fail me.

Sadly nobody who has posted here (except of course Mitch) was at the recent AGM. Hopefully you will all read the minutes from the meeting and carefully consider what was discussed and what we are currently doing or trying to do.

Please contact me or talk to any of the Committee. That is what we are here for. That is what we all commit many hours of our spare time to do, but sometimes I do question why.

In Routemaster 60 year, I am really disappointed to have to write this post, had hoped that we might all be more positive and work together.

However, I must thank the supportive words from Jack (who I have never knowlingly met) - it appears that we posted almost at the same time - at least one person understands what we are doing, and he is not even a member of the Association.

My bus number (if any): RM1368

With due respect Andrew apart from one post this thread has been in reply to Mitch's post and raises concerns about what he posted and deserves a reply. Those of us who are members appreciate the efforts of the RMA in getting parts made, but realise the limitations but are the efforts focusing on the right items?

Why are 2nd and third king pins being considered and not standards? Where is the demand for other than standards? Did the RMA know of the PVS partmaster order?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

I think the problem is that many of us may well need king pins, shock absorbers, half shafts. footbrake valves, compressors , brake pumps etc. in the future, (the amount of miles many RMA members do each year most these items would probably not wear out), but sadly even the more wealthy of us of us do not have vast amounts of spare cash to purchase often expensive parts on spec, or have the space to store them on the off chance that in the future we may need them - which parts would you buy just in case ? Perhaps the larger wedding and corporate operators, along with tfl who are more likely to require these items, already have stocks of spares for their own use and are not interested in pooling resources for remanufacture. In reality many of us would rely on specialist commercial repairers or the Association to be able to hold stocks of spares for when the need arises ? Ideally Imperial Engineering would be the people to finance and hold stocks but they obviously think the market is so small that it is not cost effective now ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

Few of us have the capital to tie up in stock that will essentially be very slow-moving items.

Looking through my "recon stock", a compressor (£750), 2 accumulators (£350 each); a foot valve (£450); set of relined brake shoes (£360); 2 brake cylinders (£700); quill drive (£300), power steering ram (£400), 50 clevis pins (£500)... That's well over £3000 of money sitting "on the shelf" waiting for the rainy day, not including the £2k worth of nuts and bolts, and about £10k worth of other spares in stock, and that is for my one-bus operation! OK, I do a lot of repairs abroad as well and some of the items have a quick turn-round but even on that basis I often have items on the shelf for several years before the money comes back and I make a small profit on it.

Imagine the cost of foot valves, 20 at £1k each, who has £20k to spare? Shock absorbers at say £200 each, 20 off is £4k, king pins 20 off each of 3 sizes at £100 each is £60k. you then need very deep pockets to finance this sort of operation.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I think Graham puts the perspective from sole owning preservationists quite clearly.

But this is where owning a classic vehicle long term ( which is the intention of most) becomes more than just owning and polishing it .

It has to be managed and it's no different from having a Morris Minor or a Mk1 Land Rover.

Factored in to the cost of upkeep has to be parts and keeping a stock of key parts that are rare or prone to failure.

Vehicles designed to be used and used a lot, do not fare too well in retirement. Irregular use leads to many hitherto reliable components failing in a myriad of ways, Damp and water ingress, seizing, grease hardening, perishing, anodonic corrosion, tyre flatting, the list is long. So parts that should last eternally, rather perversely, last less than in service use.

I have a few classic cars. They all share a BMC A series engine, so I can keep a stock of service parts and gaskets and so on.
I had kept 2 spare engines with the idea that when, or if, one fails or wears out I can rebuild a spare and do a straight swap.
I kept 2 gearboxes spare as well.
This was done when you could get this stuff for almost nothing. 20 years later said units were all stolen. Partly my fault for not hiding them away. Partly that scrap metal is worth a small fortune now and partly that these parts have become very rare and in short supply and command high prices. Ironically I now have an engine desperate for a rebuild so will have a vehicle off the road for a long time while this is done. At least it is still repairable.

But a pool of parts and ancillaries has worked for me for well over 30 years now. It costs me in storage. But I can get what I need when I need it and the vehicles stay serviceable.

But in that period of time it has actually got easier to obtain parts, much easier.

The huge difference is that with a bus type they are relatively few. However, in preservation, London Bus types are in abundance more or less in proportion to the demographics of the UK.

This still does not make the numbers great enough to warrant a competitive parts business or a club or association that can sustain a full gamut of parts or indeed full time staff.

But what can be achieved is the gaps to be filled gradually as needs arise by a close association. As Jack I think, men mentioned an umbrella under which all interested parties can pool resources and a co-ordinated effort to allow refurbishment, remanufacture, stock control and swift despatch of parts.

This could be really good for those individuals and sole traders to have access to a market beyond the hatful of regulars they normally have and possibly specialise without duplication ie three people stocking accumalators but none stocking wheel bearings. Possibly even forming a network through one central not for profit organisation.In this instance the RMA fits that bill. It would have to be underpinned by a degree of trust and honour. The chancers, cowboys and opportunists out for a fast buck would have to be tempered, by the honesty of clearly marked prices.
And there is the possibility of a bit of competition too.

Car clubs have spawned specialists businesses and as the the numbers have diminished and the huge demand for parts has peaked, things have evolved. Some businesses have merged pooling common marques and parts, and what is now emerging is manufacture of improved better than O.E. parts.

This is a little different for Routemaster owners and operators, the parts supply and demand has yet to peak in the post mass service era. So supply is diminishing and because of the much greater costs involved and the smaller demand, compounded by the wide range of non standard modifications post LT era, it's a big problem.

Larger PSV firms will see a supply and demand opportunity that will push prices way above cost and reasonable mark up. Which in hand may lead them to evaluate and drop the supply. Keeping stuff on the shelves costs money.

As Roy mentions, A relatively small stock of items that may be wanted once in a blue moon can cost a lot in capital and then sit on shelves for decades. Deciding what to have in abundance and what not have is very difficult to ascertain but the RMA has a survey and good communication should build on that

The RMOA is moving in the right direction, but as Andrew points out it, is done by volunteers, in their own time for no financial gain.
I've noticed several have been quick to criticise, but very few offer to get involved and contribute their expertise. That's normal for any club but the rub is that it's what people/members put in that makes what you get out really good, be it a sports club or a vehicle club. So much more could be achieved if more stepped up to the breach but understandably in this day and age, finding the time is so much harder, but then again even a little can be invaluable.

Mitch made a good start mentioning his intention and the response in main, was equally good as it highlights an issue that needs to be clarified.

For example: New Kingpins need bushes, Bushes may need reaming. Who has a reamer? Which sizes? How many know how to tell what sizes the kingpins are?. All stuff we can do on this site or can be in the RMA magazine.

Mitch has not responded yet, maybe because he has had to go away and find out more, seek clarification, etc or because he too, is a volunteer and has a day job and a life to attend to.

So the best thing all of us interested in preservation, restoration or operation of these vehicles is to keep communication open and strong offering the advice and contacts and help keep the picture up to date and objective, which should really benefit all from professionals to individuals.

Following on from my earlier thread about prices roy phoned me and said the prices I gave are way below today's prices. I hasten to add those prices are from memory what they may have been a few years ago, not what the items would cost today!

In Mark's thread above one thing that is needed NOW is cylinder heads for the AEC engines. In the last year and indeed this year alone I've had 4 people asking for them because theirs are cracked and are beyond repair. there's a firm at Hastings who can make them, but the tooling costs would be prohibitive. so what do we do? Cylinder blocks have reached the ends of their lives with the surfaces being ground down to the last standard, and if you have a Leyland engine, parts are even harder to find than AEC parts!

It's a way of life that many of my customers abroad and here seem to think there's still a plentiful supply of parts for these buses around because there's still thousands in service here. Yeah, can I get my AEC engine rebuilt in Germany? Yes, if they can find the spares! But I digress.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Oh dear here we go again. In today's world we have come to get used to simply going online clicking a button and what we want is delivered next day. What a nirvana. Unfortunately people need to accept that these vehicles are now 50+ years old and in some cases are completely worn out. They need serious money investing. If you can't afford it, you can't own it. Get used to that fact. Many of us try their best on a limited budget with fingers crossed. Few have unlimited resources. People aquire spares for a rainy day and others lambast them for squirreling stock which others desire.
Routemaster spares are not niche market. They are a niche within a niche, and supply of new parts is really a cottage industry. There is a pool of buses but a large percentage are now preserved and tucked away. Many are in the hands of well meaning but ill equipped (with tools knowledge and money) owners. Many live outside with limited maintenance until something breaks. These owners will never order parts which they probably do not even know their bus has let alone if it needs them. Things cannot happen overnight. Equally not everything can be done at once, a start has to be made somewhere. Let's not criticise because the items WE feel are needed are not what is being offered today.
The ideal arrangement would be for a one stop shop for all things routemaster, a sort of owners and operators association.....I am not going to attack or deride RMOOA for one moment, BUT- why are not everyone members? This is the bigger picture. With a bigger and more representative survey audience then more accurate maps of what is genuinely desired or needed is achievable. Currently the embership of (guessing here) say 400 members comprising of how many owners? Is the real RM owning market responding to what is needed? Or is it a sector of owners merely wanting embellishments, and non owners wanting leisurewear?
All RMOOA can do is ask its members. If the members say they want badges while the non members want kingpins, you know what the first step is. Join them and get your voice heard. Then, in time and certainly not overnight and certainly not in a VOR situation you might get what you need. The volunteers who run "the club" are simply not geared up to deal with urgent parts requirements for 50 year old commercial vehicles which have failed their MOT. It seems they are starting to try harder with some new keen volounteers but going forward its difficult to see how things can change.

My bus number (if any): rm531

The answer to the question: What to stock? is really quite simple...everything.
In the main, the buses were withdrawn for a very good reason, they were worn out.

I haven't had time to read all of the posts but a couple of points I will raise is firstly the statement that RML's, presumably having been refurbished, will have standard king pins. Is this correct? it is that kind of information that needs to be shared. I have no idea what I have or if I will need replacements anytime soon. If I do do I need the original type or because they are worn out if I need 2nds (Not even sure if I am using the correct terminology).

And the second is of course that none of us, the RMA or even bus part suppliers can have a batch of anything made, put it on the shelf and then wait for orders to perhaps roll in, especially when seemingly rare parts suddenly appear on eBay once it is known someone has has a batch made. It could be that those that can afford to hoard will buy what they need but that may be that and your life savings sit in your garage for ten years. A much better way is to source the supplier, then ask owners for advance orders and then set the final price to allow for an immediate break even point with any profit sitting on the shelf until sold. Unless someone is wealthy AND altruistic, I cannot see any other way of achieving what is needed. I have heard the RMA being accused of profiteering with quill drives. Those that placed pre-orders for something that we all apparently need to carry with us (as explained to me during the AGM) were not that plentiful, and only had a mark up sufficient to cover the cost of the spares put on the shelf. Of course those are slightly more expensive but then having spent money in advance to assist with the run costs why should someone else benefit from the same price when they only purchase when needed?

In the case of king pins it seems we need to know what the potential purchasers need to look for so if all those mechanical experts could let us know, that will be a start.

RML 2276, refurbished in Sheffield 1990's. Used at Camberwell until November 2004. Any ideas what I need or need to look for? Then I can place my order.

David

My bus number (if any): RML2276 M1001 T806

In a nutshell, until you have the old kingpin in your hand you won't know which size you are going to need. It is the taper of the pin which alters.

There are ways of telling what you have sometimes. There are supposed to be grooves in the top face of the pin, but these aren't guaranteed to be there. There are supposed to be paintmarks on the kingpost as well, but unless you are lucky these will have been painted over.

I have emailed Rob Duker who did have a service information bulletin with these details.

If you find that the top face of the pin is not flush (or very nearly so) with the top face of the stub axle, then someone fitted the wrong pin last time.

Thanks Roy

Mmmmm. Perhaps I should buy all three sets then!

Having read a bit more overnight I have picked up on a few points.

Roy, (without any criticism) are the parts you list available for sale or your personal stock for, as you say, that rainy day? As Graham suggested some may have stocks of parts and have no need to be involved with bulk purchases. That will always be a problem. Unless every RM owner was prepared to list all the spares they have (both for sale and for own use) we will never really know what is in short supply and what is therefore worth investing in. It is all very well saying brake valves are no longer available if everyone has one in their shed for their own bus.

Brian and Steve ask the same thing. What is needed. The RMA 2013 survey did little to show what the owners want with the vast majority of answers being unique. It seems nearly all have only one part missing but everyone else is okay but did you all complete the survey (I didn't)! As Steve also pointed out not all RM owners are members and I presume those that are not have no need for us to assist them. If that is the case where do they get parts from?

I joined the association to obtain information to keep my bus on the road. If the parts were readily available or if I'd had the foresight to steal anything not screwed down during my LT days I wouldn't have needed to. I joined the committee to try to improve things. Some have said that is happening, slowly perhaps but happening never the less. In a utopian world we would have a large workshop with full time engineers repairing, manufacturing and stocking everything you will ever need but I think that may increase subs just a little. As several have said, there is little commercial value in making or stocking these parts.

There is no other organisation that can assist us. Commercially, fewer are interested, individually few can afford to take on the task there self, collectively, well that means a new club and that cannot happen due to the sums of money needed and the fact that few of us can be bothered and what would be the point anyway. There is hardly a need for competition in such a niche market. Splitting us would further our already secretive world. Even the forums are split and share little. No one stood against the four committee members up for election this year (including me) so either we are doing okay or again, no one is actually that bothered. This year is difficult financially because of RM60 which seems to be well received so presumably is wanted by both members and non-members. With a successful event, including sales of clothing, we will have funds to finance a few projects but without accurate details of what is or will be needed what do we concentrate on. That includes telling us where you bought your parts from so we can share that with members and how to repair things preferably with photographs for publication.

On the subject of only clothing and backpacks being available, we have sourced a supplier who, at their own risk, are manufacturing the items and will then sell on our behalf not just at the RM60 event but now, online and at a number of events between now and July. They are then sharing profits with us. That is a risk free, fund raising method that will benefit all members.

So, regarding parts manufacture, there is a way that anyone with a little enthusiasm, can achieve. If you have a need for a part to be manufactured or bulk purchased and have found a supplier then contact us. We can assist in getting to bus owners the information via our magazine and website, Chris and Alan's forums and other means so that advance orders can be placed, via us if the prospective buyers feel safer parting with money in advance. That will prove if there is an actual need for the part and fund it. One AGM attendee said he would be happy to break even on the deal, paying the same as everyone else for his parts. I say, buy ten, sell 8 at a price that covers your costs, have your one for free for your trouble and put one on the shelf for a future sale that will eventually produce a cash sum to kick start the next project.

David Colin

My bus number (if any): RML2276 M1001 T806

I have now found my written notes relating to this .

A standard pin will have no markings on its top face, neither will the kingpost.

A 2nd standard will have 2 rings or notches on the top face. The kingpost will have 2 painted white bands 1/2" wide.

A 3rd standard will have three rings or notches on the pin and three painted white 1/2" bands on the kingpost.

There is a fourth standard as well which will have 3 rings and one notch on the pin.

The pins can also be identified by measuring the diameter of the taper at top and bottom and its length. The taper gets fatter with each standard.

The only old paint markings I have found so far on the kingpost have been green blobs.

It will be important to check the relative relationship between the top of the taper and the kingpost, the same relationship between the top face of an assembled pin and the top face of the stub axle, and the diameter and length of the taper of the pin.

The green blobs if of LT origin were inspection markings, indicating part was FFI (fit for issue). Chiswick used all sorts of paint codes on parts, yellow stripes indicating which process ( method and specification) the part was to be air-conditioned to, a red blob was scrap!

The markings on the A frame are supposed to be white bands/stripes, two indicating 2nd standard etc, but as you say Roy, most were painted over.

The guide to king pins is on Rob Duker's Little Paxton web pages

http://s399704165.initial-website.co.uk/routemaster-parts/


Talking to Lionel Moss once, he reckoned very few king posts were ever reamed to 3rd or 4th standard, the standards being produced to allow for this when corrosion was found that required reaming, most did not.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

This is the info that I have on King Pins.
The original LT sheet was in poor condition, so it was re typed word for word.
I hope it helps.

Regards

Rob


When it is necessary to ream the taper bore of the front axle kingposts oversize to remove corrosion, the kingpost is to be identified as a second standard oversize by two white painted bands ½” wide.

The kingpin used with second standard oversized kingpost must have the length of taper at the small end reduced by 0.125 and a special washer, part number 3069L-194, is to be provided and fitted in such cases under the bottom thrust pad as shown by LT drawing SK.3727E. For identification purposes the kingpins are to have 2 parallel notches ground on the top journal end face to denote second standard. Where necessary, to ensure clearance, an additional joint part number A4-19414 is to be fitted under the kingpost top cover.

This modified kingpin can only be used where the kingpost taper bore can be cleaned up to a max of .0094” oversize. It has now been found that the percentage of corroded bores will not clean up to this dimension and that in some instances it will be necessary to open up the bore to .015” oversize. In order, therefore, to obtain further life out of the kingposts a third new standard kingpin is to be introduced which will be used with kingposts with reamed taper bores between .0094 to .015 oversize. A packing washing will not be required when the third standard kingpin is used.

Kingposts reamed to the third standard (.0094 to .015 oversize in bore) are to be identified by 3 white painted bands half inch wide. The second and third standard kingpins will be known under new part numbers: Third standard kingpins are to be identified by 3 annular grooves machined on top journal end face of pin.

It has now been found that a number of kingposts will not clean up at a third standard of .015” oversize. In order, therefore, to obtain further life from the kingposts, a new fourth standard kingpin part number 3069L.207 is to be introduced which will be used with kingposts with reamed taper bores between .015” to .021”oversize. Oversized kingposts for the fourth standard pins will be identified by 4 white painted bands.

The fourth standard kingpin is to be made from the third standard kingpin part number L.10440 by reducing the length of the taper at the small end by 0.125” as shown on LT drawing 3069L.195.

Fourth standard kingpin part number 3069L.207 will be identified by the three annular grooves and one notch machined on top journal end face of pin.

When fourth standard kingpin 3069L.207 is assembled it will be necessary to use packing washer 3069L.194 under the bottom thrust pad as shown on LT drawing SK3727E.

My bus number (if any): RM7

To reply to David's query, I keep a stock of parts for further sale. As you may know, I often get calls from abroad and here for urgent assistance, hence the need for "popular" parts like brake bits etc. This proved useful recently; Imperial managed to rebuild my 3 foot valves into 1 serviceable unit. that went out to another bus within 2 weeks! More luck than chance though.

For my own bus, the preventative maintenance regime "should" let me know well in advance what parts are likely to need replacing so I can organise those in advance. I done the brakes, king pins, front shocks, A frame rubbers and gearbox on 2532 about 6 years ago, so it should last. For PSV work I need 100% reliability.

I do have a stock of "other parts" which have come off buses that have been dismantled over the years and obtained from other sources :).

My bus number (if any): RML2532

With the large tfl fleet of Routemasters being disposed of in a relatively short period, I would have thought there would have been a largish volume of surplus spares around the garages . I wonder where they all went or were they mostly weighed in ? Had we been owners then It's a shame we or the ROOMA as it was then, weren't better organised or had the foresight to secure more of them, particularly mechanical parts ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

I assume that you are referring to the 2005 disposals ?

At the time, everyone was doing their own thing and nobody (or only a few) wanted to work together - now doesn't that sound familiar ? However, don't forget that when the 43 RMs were refurbished by Marshalls in 2000-2002, TfL did not want to deal with individuals, but they did work with the RMOOA and we had all the spares that came off these vehicles.

I am not sure that there were masses of spares that were available as such. I remember at least one company who told me that what they did have, they were keeping for their few remaining vehicles - and I think they still have the spares to this day. Go Ahead released a batch of "dirty" spares a while back and we have steadily been overhauling these parts and making them available.

So if you hear of any spares coming available, please let us know, and we will try and help secure them.

By the way, I don't think we did know anything about what PSV Partsmaster were producing - if we had, we would have included it in our Magazine in the section where we had mentioned the King Pins. Sadly I don't think anyone told us.

My bus number (if any): RM1368

London General's stock of spares was all kept at Camberwell, latterly under the eye of a chap whose name I won't publish. He was THE stores man and knew the stock inside out. LG had pistons for AECs specially made; I bought a few sets from them, along with "dirty" engines and other stuff, but that was in the late 90's. The stores man retired to his country retreat. I don't know if he still has any stuff in his garden shed.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

In hindsight I agree that as mass Routemaster preservation was in it's infancy I doubt any of the large companies would have wanted to deal with individuals or small groups. Also many were still running small fleets of heritage vehicles themselves so would be reluctant to release the spares. At that time most of the existing preservationists had owned there vehicles for some while (mainly original AEC types) so were probably well sorted with parts from when they were relatively cheap and plentiful ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

I thought a few pictures would help illustrate this particular issue.
These are from an RM that has not been touched since 1982 and had been overhauled at Aldenham just 1 year previously.

There are two white bands on a steering component and 2 yellow paint marks on the axle stub and king post.

But are there any other visual ways that identify this units king pin size?

It's a shame Mitch still has not replied to the questions asked. I hope he has not taken offence and run for cover following his suggestion.

There'e no shame in saying I did not know or am not sure and checking again and it's spawned what I think is a positive debate.


Mark's pictures though have provoked a thought. Our fleets are now barcoded so we know what parts are fitted and what mods are carried out and indeed if any machining and regrading has been carried out. Right down to a tyrevalve cap.

LT had as mentioned, a similar approach but as parts were recirculated constantly, and the computer age did not exist, records were kept by LT but only on repairs and servicing. The type/grade of parts was a simple colour coding of parts.

So now xx years later, most preserved and service buses have been cleaned and painted underneath and the markings lost.
Worth keeping a photographic record beforehand, but for most that's now too late.

That's what makes identifying things like king pins so much harder.

But it remains a good simple system.

I am wondering whether it might be a good idea to publish a list of all the markings and their locations.
Some owners might still be able to locate some of them,

But for reference, once the grade is known if the same marks are applied, this can be a lasting record of what is in what state. So if the bus changes hand or the paperwork goes awol or the grey matter fades a visual check can be corelated with a published guide.

Never having done king pins I don't know exactly where the markings are, so are there any pictures showing exactly where to look?

Mark Kehoe

I thought a few pictures would help illustrate this particular issue.
These are from an RM that has not been touched since 1982 and had been overhauled at Aldenham just 1 year previously.

There are two white bands on a steering component and 2 yellow paint marks on the axle stub and king post.

But are there any other visual ways that identify this units king pin size?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Dear Members and bus owners

Re – Manufacturing of King Pins and Front Shock Absorbers

Sorry for the delay in getting back to the forum, I have been away recently, plus attending and focusing on my own work recently.

Thank you for all of you to date, who have responded to me via email to my initial post on the re-manufacture of King Pins and Front Shocks, for letting me know your requirements. Once we have enough orders in to proceed I will get back to you and thanks to those of you who have given support and have understood the rational for what we are trying to achieve.

However, it seems that looking to try and get some parts re-manufactured has caused a bit of a stir with some. I have read through a few posts, but frankly not all as it is hard to keep track of the threads with some going off at certain tangents! I will try and answer to ones that I can and I feel relevant, but I don’t think anyone has the time and will power to try and answer all comments, so I will try and do what I can.

So I will try and break down the reasoning for it all in the best way I can, for those who need it.

In an ideal world we would be ordering a selection of all sizes, without asking for pre orders to make any order happen and have them sat ready to go in our stores for whenever anyone requires them.

However we don’t have the luxury of living in that ideal world at present. It is estimated that RM60 will cost in the region of £25k. With it loaming ever closer, unfortunately I have little to no funds at my disposal at this time to order and stock parts, as the association needs to ring fence almost all of its funds to make this event happen and be a huge success that I suspect all of us want to see. So until sometime after RM60 when all the logistics/finances have been finalised, although I may not like it, there is little or no funding for me to play with.

So being this in mind I need to be as creative and concise with what we order in, however no matter what funding I do or do not have (?) and we all do need spares.

So this comes around to the debate on King Pins. There are currently none left in circulation, so no matter about funding we do need to make them happen, where we can. In recent months I have had requests for std’s, 2nds & 3rd. I am afraid Brian, the requests I have had for 2nds & 3rds have far out stripped the requests for std’s. Also I have had discussions with those who fit them for a living, like Ward Jones Commercials and others and they have come back saying that they have a greater demand for 2nd’s & 3rd’s. So in the situation we find ourselves where we have limited resources, we have to make some tough calls, so the decision was made to go for 2nd’s & 3rd’s.

The decision was also made in part, on where we are sourcing our pins. Davey Engineering historically have made the pins for us, they have all the patterns/drawings/spec for the RM at hand. However due to the fact that in commercial terms king pins for a RM is not an economic part to manufacture now days they would not do a run for us unless the order was for 50 units (of one size pin), if we had an order of 70 pins we could have 2 sizes of Pins.

So hence the decision to go for the 2nds & 3rds – due to what we could get done in batch numbers and from requested demand.

I can assure those who are getting frustrated and vocal we do not just look at getting orders done without any thought or planning, we are trying to get it done the best we can on our limited resources.

One of the other problems that has been highlighted is that many of us may not need certain parts now or do not know the actual sizing of the component until it needs replacing, which are really valid points. So they need someone to stock the items for when they are needed, which is where most of us hope the Association can step in! Which brings us on to our next major problem we face now days, with the cost of holding stock. Even if most of the Association’s funds had not been ring fenced for RM60, it is likely the Association committee would not have approved my request for having the batch of front shocks and king pins made up due to cost of having some much of its funds (about £9K for shocks and pins) tied in stock up for several years on the shelf before getting any return. So we are now in the world were we do have to take pre-orders for stock if we are going to get parts re-manufactered.

Which means at times members/bus owners will have to support and dip into our pockets to make sure these things happen, it is not what we want but it is the reality of life, as we cannot expect others to stump up all the funding instead of us.

With regard to a batch of standard pins already being made up (if I have understood the threads of the converstaions) under the guidance of Roy and Brian, we were totally unaware of this happening, as no one had informed us. But this is great news if it is happening and if someone can forward me the details of were/who someone goes to when they need standard pins, I will forward them in that direction, which means those who need standard pins can access them and then the Association can focus on the other items. We can also add this news to the Association magazine for those without internet access. Well done to those who are getting these done, please email me directly how to direct others to you or were too.

On one good bit of news, hopefully we have found a benefactor who might want to fund the whole production run of all the front shocks to make that order go ahead at no overall benefit to themselves. So that we can have that stock sat on the shelves for years ready to go. So this might be one part of the spares issue resolved, however this is early days and once I have 100% confirmed this news, the Association will let all know. However, I would ask one thing on this note please – it would be appreciated if this news on the shocks is not debated over in the same tone as many posts tend to get discussed, as that will be one sure way to get anybody to walk away and not help us out. As many times on these forums we do not do ourselves any favours and do not show ourselves in a positive light!

I have hesitated strongly on mentioning the fact we may have an investor for the shocks, but I did also want to show in the same vain, that we are not sitting on our backsides and that things are going on behind the scenes to try and make things happen.

There has been a lot of issues discussed above and I hope it makes sense and I am sure it will not agree with everyone but in these times they are the reality of the situation. I hope it has brought some clarity and rational behind some of our actions.

My last request if possible - although we must have debate and discussion on subjects that are close to us and in essence this should never be restricted. With all the debate that has gone on with this post, the message about what we are trying to do and achieve has been lost in all our personal opinions and debate. Which has led some people feedback to me that they are not sure if they want to invest due to turmoil and debate that has gone on, to date. Therefore if everyone is happy, I would like to relist my original post on a fresh page so that people can see what is trying to be achieved and get owners interest.

My last note please bear in mind that it is unlikely that I will respond to any post on a regular basis, as with modern life of holding down 3 jobs and family life, I do not spend much time surfing the forums. If there is something for me to comment on, please contact me directly, and it is likely I will respond but it may often be some time before I do, so please don’t get too stressed if it is not straight away.

Thanks Mitch

My bus number (if any): RMC1462

I think this latest post by Mitch on this topic sums everything up pretty well and so I am locking the thread because it has got too long for any further comment to be useful.

Please contact Mitch directly if you know anything about a batch of standard pins already being made up.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17