Hi All

Not wishing to start a major debate and looking for a fairly simple answer I wonder if anyone could provide a RAL or other widely recognised paint code for the exterior red on a Routemaster.

I understand many numbers and changes over the years but wonder if there is now a common shade people use??

Any help would be great.

Thanks.

My bus number (if any): RLH62

Jim

I have read the main page but before ordering the paint just thought I would see if any other numbers surface as common to recent repaints.

Dave.

The RAL colours are not quite right .

Lots of classic colours are hard to match with the RAL system.

The BS system offers so much more variation on tints.

As LT RED did change over some years it's probably best to decide what period you are wanting to depict you bus and then go from there.
The red changed noticeably when the white band and solid roundel was introduced around 1974.

Post LT it's a free for all.

Even Peter Hendy was heard to have a gripe about the buses being painted the wrong shade of red when he took over at TfL!

The shades did indeed vary over the years. It also varies with age.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Has anyone got any paint code details for the London Country era - NBC leaf green , white band and grey for wheels ?
thanks
mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

Yes but I don't have it to hand. It's listed in the Standox catalogue available from Cannons MSA at Mitcham.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I'm pretty sure HMG coatings have matched the LT colours, they also appear to have have a place near to Ensign's in Juliette Way Purfleet - maybe someome else has used them and can advise ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

HMG Paints do have a depot in Juliette Way near to Ensignbus and the head office is in Manchester at:
Riverside Works
Collyhurst Road
Manchester
M40 7RU
Tel: 0161 205 7631
My RT was painted by London Bus and Truck during its previous ownership using HMG's products and still looks good (but I would say that, wouldn't I ?)

My bus number (if any): RT 3183

Has anyone found a match for the interior maroon used in RM's? The RAL purpurot is ok but not right.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Which maroon do you mean, Roy? The gloss or the leathercloth?

I recently had both made by an automotive supplier in Poole by taking samples of original LT paint there which they then sent away to have the composition investigated in order to arrive at the formula to make it.

I didn`t have any original Sung Yellow but by taking off the small circular aerial inspection plate from the top deck ceiling, that was sent away for paint analysis. I don`t know where they sent it but it came back with the formula for making it so I had some done. I`ve now painted the lower deck ceiling on RM 1563 and I think they have got the colour spot on. I'm really pleased with it.

The burgundy leathercloth paint that I've had made also looks good and it covers well. But I've only used a little of it so far.

I've only had a litre of burgundy gloss made as I've found someone who has an unopened (but still fluid) tin of it which I'm hoping to buy as soon as the logistics of getting it can be sorted. I want to try it against the paint I`ve had made to see how it matches. From the picture it looks as if the paint I've had made is way at odds with the original. But I'm not so sure - as I seem to recall that burgundy gloss did look quite bright when first applied. After all, the original LT paint which is visible was put there by me in 1985 so it`s bound to look a bit flat by now! Also, in the picture, the new paint is just applied and the sun is on it so it looks lighter than it really is. I'm hoping to get to the bus this weekend and will take some more pictures now that the paint has been on for a month.

I've tried several automotive paint suppliers to match the paints on my BEA 4RF4, both the interior "maroon" and the exterior grey. Absolutely nothing on their colour cards matched, so I went to Williamsons Paints in Yorkshire, sent them some samples. They were about the only firm I could find who could do a match from very small samples. They seem to be THE specialists in the heritage world for such things as they provide most paints to heritgae railways, canal boat restorers as well as mainstream businesses.

Anyway, the samples I sent them were a section of seat spring (the curved base on the seat back) which had some almost unfaded maroon, and a similar small sample of grey from an unfaded bit of beading inside the boot! Both have been given a Williamsons 6-figure number so if I want some more I can order it.

For RM Sung Yellow as I said in an earlier post my old supplier, Avenue Coatings in Slough remembered an order I made back in 1990-something, found my order and made some more! They are quite happy to make it for others and will be happy to send it by carrier or post to wherever you want it.

I have an old Standox catalogue that lists several LT colours including 3 shades of LT red, indian red for wheels and a few others. I once saw an old Dulux catalogue that listed LT colours going back before WW2 These may be useful for reference numbers providing whoever you try to order from can match those numbers with current products. I haven't yet found a number for dark burgundy!

As I said earlier, the RL purpurot is ok and was used by :London General in the 19880's for interior repaints before the refurb programme but it doesn't "look" right. I've had this made by 2 suppliers and both are different, though it does fade down over the years. I'm not painting the leathercloth as this was renewed about 10 years ago. If I do that again I'll use Ratchfords rexine.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Hi Dave - here's the simple answer I think you were looking for - RAL3002 Karmin Rot (Carmine Red) is commonly used (by me and several people I know)

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Legislation for paint contents is the main culprit.
Whilst it is still possible to get specialist coatings ie Oil based and so on. It is the pigments that make up the colours that are the issue.

Both Red and Yellow contained cadmium as a pigment ingredient. ( Lead was deleted on RM builds, not for health and safety, but to save weight) The lead content is in the Chiswick Pink undercoat and stove enamel though, so be very careful when sanding this back on an original panel.

The cadmium gave the colours a depth or lustre and were less likely to fade. Lasting 3-6 years in daily service. Road grime, diesel grime and bus wash etc. Looked after very carefully this should run to 12-15 years.

Even with water based paints used in the automotive industry now. Reds and Yellows still cause issues with fading and tonal change. Even the most expensive paints have been known to fade.

The very latest coatings are much better but only time will tell if they remain true.

The problem for classic vehicles is getting a good match that holds and fades the right way. The finish was always intended to fade down or weather a little after a short while but then remain stable thereafter.

Some LT reds look fine at application but after a year or so either fade out , darken or change tone. Some tend to go a little pink or magenta, others start to look a little milky.

Yellows are the same but as the RM's Sung ~Yellow is Pale and slightly milky or opaque and protected from direct sunlight, more likely to last.

On RMs the Main Ceiling panels were stove enamelled in Sung Yellow and lasted very well. with many never being painted over during service life, just the beading and coves and fittings. In the days of smoking, this showed up on the upper deck as the nicotine attacked the oil based paintwork quicker than the stove enamel. But eventually it all succumbed to severe yellowing and is why top decks were painted entirely but often lower decks remained part painted.

The effect of nicotine was always really apparent on the tube. I remember the smoking carriages on the 1959 stock were so yellow inside that I thought they were actually painted in a different shade to indicate a smoking car.
It was only when a overhauled trains appeared that it was not the case.
Enough though, for me to never want me to smoke, ever.

It looks like Red is a problem still. The latest refurbs on the Heritage RMs show the shade of red is not quite right although it has a nice finish. But looks a little opaque.

It does come down to paint type and supplier. Oddly, whilst I've noticed a lot of RMs are now in differing shades of red, Preserved RTs always seem to be exactly the same with very little variation in shade even if the finish is not perfect but weather down evenly as well.

Using the right undercoat can help. Many buses are now primered in a protective barrier coat which tends to be a shade of yellow. Traditional paints would be better with the original undercoat shade which if applied well and flatted back will give a superior final finish.

LT used Chiswick Pink and the roof and upper windows were in Grey. I'm not sure why the difference. Brian or Roy probably knows that one

You're right there about the H&S rules altering the make-up of paint. there are a few suppliers who can still supply "original" type paints to the heritage movement and Williamsons. You have to specify either heritage finish or railway industry finish, and even better quality paint so they assure me to deal with steam locos and the like!

I recently used the remnants of an old tin of their bus red, full of bits and lumps. I stirred it well with the electric drill paint stirrer, strained the lumps out, thinned it a bit with some white spirit and brushed it on. that paint literally fell down the panels and gave an absolute perfect run-free and brushmark free finish the likes of which I've not been able to replicate for years, not since Pinchin & Johnson supplied paint for LT. The only downside was it took a bit too long to dry and picked up some very fine dust that was around.

I'm about to order some new red from Williamsons in the heritage range, so will let you know how I get on with it. The BEA grey and maroon they mixed for me was in the railway range and was a bit on the thick side when delivered.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Having had some conversations with Williamsons Paints in Yorkshire, they sent me some samples of LT red. I also got samples of Indian red for the wheels, chiswick cream and another with someone's name with Chiswick cream.

One of them was the red I'm currently using, the other was Routemaster Red which is a richer colour. I ordered a couple of cans of the Routemaster red and test painted one panel. That red looks far better on the RM than the LT red. The panel was painted on a fairly cold afternoon with a new brush but I'm delighted with the result as the paint flowed freely without thinners and brushed out with no visible brush marks and en excellent gloss finish.

I'm looking forward to when the whole bus it painted, the existing paint, done commercially about 10 years ago, was looking a bit faded despite being done in two-pack, and was rather orange-peely.

I know the shade of red varied over the years but the one I've chosen looks right. Anyone wanting vintage paint matched, I'd suggest going to Williamsons, they've been in the business for a very long time and their range designed for historic vehicles is ideal for brushing as well as spraying.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Do you have the codes for these paints ? I would be interested to try them.

Thanks

My bus number (if any): RM1368

Yes, I'll post them when I get time later in the week, busy driving on the Piccadilly Line replacement at the moment!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

been a bit busy on the Piccadilly Line replacements...

Williamsons have sent me colour samples for:

BS448 deep indian red (as used on trolleybus wheels)

SP20069 indian red, used on RM wheels

R5002 Ultramarine blue which "may" be what the RMAs carried, but I don't think so;

SP29082 London Bus Red, this seems to be the lighter shade currently used;

SP29063 London Routemaster Red, this is slightly darker and richer and is, I suspect, the colour used in earlier times. I've tried a test panel on 2532 and it really looks nice and rich in colour.

SP07113 Chiswick Cream, based on the original LT sample

SP08711 Rivers Chiswick Cream, slightly lighter, probably based on a sample provided by Mr.Rivers.

Suitable thinners for the heritage paint is SR1.

Williamsons can be contacted on 01765 607711. They mix to order and supply within a couple of days. There's vearying types of paint, I got the "heritage brushing quality" which, even with an old brush on a cold-ish day gave an excllent high gloss stroke-free finish without drying out too quickly.

My bus number (if any): RML2532