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Engine

Hi there,

I have recently encountered some major mechanical issues. Basically London Bus & Truck are telling me that the big ends are knackered in my Iveco engine. They can re-build this, but this will take considerable time. I have never been that enamoured with this engine anyway so am considering complete replacement. Do members have any advice/suggestions with regard to alternatives. What I am about to say may well be taken as heresy, but I would quite like an engine with a bit more oomph to it, so am open to all suggestions. Does anybody know what engines they use on the Heritage Route vehicles as these seem to be reasonably powered?

Gwyn owner RML2382

My bus number (if any): RML2382

Re: Engine

The Heritage routes buses have Cummins engines, with Allison gearboxes. To do a conversion to a Cummins which is a smaller engine, would mean a major amount of work, new parts and wiring changes.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Engine

Have the engine rebuilt properly, these engines require great care being more difficult to get right, and the fuel pump overhauled and recalibrated when you will have a different bus on your hands. You will need to go elsewhere.

Re: Engine

The Iveco keeps throwing off the alternator/fan belts as well, which has been a pain in the bum.

My bus number (if any): RML2382

Re: Engine

Engine rebuilds are never cheap. As roy says, take it elsewhere quickly.

There's several "faults" with the Iveco: the pump linkage is usually set incorrectly, this give loss of power; the pump is severely derated for London work. It could conceivably be set to run faster, but may not give more power.

Neither roy or myself recommend upping the speed unless your bus is very well maintained as prop shafts tend to vibrate and cause transmission damage, and your brakes may not be set for maximum efficiency.

Ivecos shedding fan belts is a common problem, the former Corona bus used to di this all the time. It turned out the alternator was out of line. It's possible to replace the 3 individual belts with a single triple belt, but again they're expensive.

If you want a second opinion on the state of your engine, contact either me or roy, we're not too far from LT&B.

Re: Engine

Slightly concerned by the comments above. Is it the opinion that LB&T do not have the necessary expertise to do the rebuild competently. I'm pretty sure their diagnoses of the problem is okay as the knocking coming from the engine is nasty. When I spoke to Shaun there he said that they sub-contract this type of work to a specialist, but can't remember the name he gave (a father & son team). Not interested in more speed, but the ability to get up hills would be nice.

My bus number (if any): RML 2382

Re: Engine

It sounds like a company called s & j engineering .If it is I was under the impression that the father was no longer part of the business..I could be well wrong here. If it is the same company they have most likely rebuilt the engine at some point in its life. That company used to rebuild all of the Ivecos for arriva..If you stick with the iveco if set up right there is no reason for lack of power. I can only assume as both roys have said it has been played with. Just make sure the engine is fully rebuilt not just painted over. A lot of iveco engines are knackered and need a full rebuild. .hope that helps
Tony

Re: Engine

Gwyn Floyd
Slightly concerned by the comments above. Is it the opinion that LB&T do not have the necessary expertise to do the rebuild competently. I'm pretty sure their diagnoses of the problem is okay as the knocking coming from the engine is nasty. When I spoke to Shaun there he said that they sub-contract this type of work to a specialist, but can't remember the name he gave (a father & son team). Not interested in more speed, but the ability to get up hills would be nice.
I couldn't possibly comment on the quality of work or diagnosis given by LB&T as I've not dealt with them personally, but I know several people who have and they expressed dissatisfaction with the time taken to Do Things.

It may be they've diagnosed the problem correctly but it would not be professional to get involved in a slanging match over another company on a public forum. Someone asked for an opinion, I've given my opinion, get a second opinion, simples. :)

I had a DMS Iveco rebuilt about 15 years ago by someone in the Epsom are, they used to rebuild them for London General. It lasted about 200 miles and lost all compression and never ran again. DMS2333 if it's still around.

Edited to add we're currently stripping some AEC engines for rebuild; time taken to remove engine from bus half a day for an AEC, probably a day for an Iveco; strip engine 2 days and assess the damage. Time taken to source parts, who knows, time taken to grind crankshaft, 3 days including taking it to and from grinders, overhaul fuel pump and injectors, a week, grind heads, lap in valves etc. So probably about 4 weeks tops depending on parts availability.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine

The ' Corona ' bus Iveco engine was rebuilt by a company called Smiles Engineering Newcastle, apparently when I spoke to them they mentioned that the engine had been rebuilt incorrectly down south somewhere. I was told the rebuild was a regardless of cost job and therefore very comprehensive. My experience driving the bus was that it performed as well as the Cummins 8.3, however it seems there is a lot of negativity regarding the Iveco.
I was told by the guy at Smiles Engineering that they rebuild AEC engines as well, perhaps someone up north knows the company.

Re: Engine

The problem I found on the Corona bus was that the linkage, like a lot of Iveco-engine RMs was set at the wrong angle of dangle and it was impossible to get full power at all. The Renown coaches RML was the same, it wouldn't even pull itself out of my previous yard. Quite how it got up Winchelsea Hill on the A259 is a mystery!

Any competent rebuilder can rebuild AEC engines providing they can source the parts. Some of the older firms may just have the bearing set and gaskets in stock.

The engine roy is building in my place had a standard crank in 1991 by Craig Tilsley, but someone let it run low on oil, so it now needs a set of thin-walled -020 big ends and thick-walled -020 mains! Not to mention 4th standard head gaskets (709s).

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine

Was the particular Iveco engine used in thr RM used in other Iveco vehicles too - if so (or not) how plentiful are spares for said engine. ?
Can l ask the same question about the Cummings engine? Thanks

Re: Engine

I understand the Iveco is basically a marine engine; the Cummins C series is a very much de-rated vehicle engine.

With the limited dealings I've had with both these engines, Iveco dealers know little about their engine, same with the Cummins but if you provide the engine number this helps a lot!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine

I was told that the Iveco started life as an emergency electricity generator, but it is getting quite difficult now to find anybody at Iveco who knows anything sensible. There was a company down in Portsmouth who have been quite helpful in the past. Can't remember their name off top of my head.

My bus number (if any): RML 2382

Re: Engine

The Iveco 8361 was and as far as I know still is a popular marine engine. In its many turbocharged forms it has a horsepower (400) and revolution rating far in excess of what is developed by the version fitted to these buses.

Having had past experience of working on similar Iveco engines, these are not to be tackled lightly, standard but less commonly used methods are required. Adjusting the height of the cylinder liners is an involved process requiring great care.

The company referred to is Marlin Marine who I suggest should be consulted about who has the expertise and experience to undertake overhaul work on this engine. It should be stressed that if a bus engine fails then the passengers simply get off and wait for the next one; if a marine engine fails, the passengers' lives may well be in danger. Their advice will be based on this criterion.

Re: Engine

To remove or fit an Iveco engine into a Routemaster should take the same amount of time as an AEC. We put an Iveco into RM 928 after schools and had it running by tea time. A lovely engine and as Roy say's where the throttle linkage connects into the remains of the AEC set-up it is important to get the 'angle-of-dangle' correct. We also removed the throttle-dip and substituted a solid bar because we wired it for permanent semi-auto.

My bus number (if any): RM 912

Re: Engine

If depends what you want your bus to do.

If you are intending it to earn it's keep and use it commercially, then it may well be worth looking at options for fitting a Euro 5 or 6 power unit.
The Marshal refurbed Routemasters were 'future proofed to take a selection of later Euro options. I understand that wiring and extra relay /electrical capacity is incorporated to handle such alterations.

That makes the bus a go anywhere LEZ free vehicle. And easy for parts and after service.
The cost may well be recovered by the period of time over the revenue earned.

Or if it's an easy life then go back to an AEC which properly rebuilt and carefully maintained will last a long time .

Re: Engine

Marlin Marine, that name rings a bell for Iveco parts. They may be based in Southampton rather than Portsmouth.

Whatever, an engine rebuild these days is likely to cost around £8k-£10k. A factory-overhauled Volvo engine is at least £20k!! Don't preserve Volvo buses.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine

Back to my earlier comment about rebuilding AEC engines, out of the 5 now in stock, it seems we'll be lucky to get one decent engine out of the lot! An awful lot of money will need to be spent to make or source parts for the rest. roy reckons con rods excessively worn, what appear to be decent pistons with excess groove wear, cracked heads, you name it, it's worn out!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine

going back to my earlier thread about the AEC engine roy's building, further investigation reveals why it ran low on oil pressure, maybe not low on oil: in the crankshaft there's various "hollows" for oil to pass through. In the big end journals there's inspection covers, dish shaped, which are held in place by bolts, secured with a castle nut and split pin.

At least 2 of these were loose, and had probably ben so since the engine was built, causing a los of oil pressure in the whole engine, causing severe damage to the crank, bearings, and other areas. This isn't the first time I've come across this problem. the engine in 2156 suffered a failure many years ago which we eventually found was caused by one of these bolts breaking, causing a fatal loss of oil pressure.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine

With a lot of help from roy, the investigation of AEC engine failures continues! A common theme is overheating causing partial piston and ring failure.

This can be caused by several faults: blown head gaskets, cracked cylinder heads, dropped liners, defective water pumps, defective thermostat, wrong radiator cap, blocked radiator.

From recent experience, it seems that defective water pumps tops the list. Having spoken to someone in Antwerp who has lost 3 engines to defective water pumps, leads me to speculate that whoever is rebuilding pumps may be using new "old stock".

Rubber seals have a shelf life of about 4 years according to a firm who supplied me with some RT gearbox seals about 10 years ago so it would logically follow that water pump seals made in the 1970's would be well past their "sell by" date in 2014! The rubber may have deteriorated to such an extent that it would fail after a short period of service. Early pump seal failure could also be caused by the wrong radiator cap.

The RM (AEC engine ) is designed to run with a cap set to 4psi, a very light spring. some buses I've seen have had caps from all sorts of other vehicles, probably set to up to 20psi.

Meanwhile I'm trying a new source of water pump rebuilder, with no offence at all to the chap who's been doing mine for the last 15 years. Water pumps at £150 is cheaper than an engine rebuild at upwards of £8k!!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Engine iveco

I need a water pump foriveco motor I also need a foot valve for brakes on 1961 rout master rm do you know where I can get either of these parts thank you

Re: Engine iveco

Delivery to which country?

Re: Engine iveco

E mail says Cynthia Scott...
Assuming this is a serious request on a 2014 post, You can get Iveco stuff al over Europe depends on the engine. RM Footbrake valve service kits are available from Routemaster Association, you have to join as only available to members and are expensive!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs