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Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Hi All

we are getting a Routemaster but the body work is very is in very poor condition
it will need all new side panels replacing the bonnet and front wing repairing plus all top corner panels sorting put.
we want a full respray to a 1st class std in 2 pack paint but so far the cheapest price quoted is £10.000.
We feel because its a routemaster we are being ripped off, we had one price of £15.000 that firm tried to tell it would take loads of man hours to make it look good again.

I guess it would be loads of man hours if the guys drink tea all day instead of working on the bus.

we are from Bristol and are happy to take the bus to london if it can be done cheaper
any Recommenendations please with photos of samples of work done.

PS we also need it bringing up HGV test std

Thank You

Sally

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

New flat panels can generally be made for about £40 each as the price of ali panels 8x4 is about £80. This is generally cheaper than buying loads of paint stripper or employing someone to rub down rough panels which can take far more man-hours. A decent repaint could therefore cost what you quote. there is a company in Rye, East Sussex, that offers double deck repaints from about £2k and does a decent job, but that is only if the panels are straight! You get what you pay for.

As for getting the bus to HGV standards, what I your intended use? Whilst it can be used for carrying goods for hire and reward, I don't know of any RMs that have been tested as such. The carrying capacity of goods would be limited to the weight of the number of people it was designed to carry, so 72 or 64 seats times 65kg., the weight of an average passenger.

If you need it to passenger carrying or class 5 private bus standards, the cost is whatever parts need replacing. Brake accumulators are typically about £350 each to supply and fit, general brake overhaul can cost a bit, plus whatever else you find wrong. Also, whatever electrics to you fit, DO NOT earth anything to the body, this causes gearbox problems.

I think Martin Detheridge on here is somewhere in your area and is good with RMs, or there's myself or Roy Lane, but we're both in the south east who would be pleased to help.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

The fact that you have described the £10,000 price quoted as a ripoff gives an indication of your budget and intentions, that and the fact that you wish it to be a "HGV" and not "PCV" or "Historic".

Suggesting that the people who you want to do a good job for you will be sitting around drinking tea all day probably isn't helpful.

These buses are around 50 years old. They cost a lot of money to get to a really good finish due to years of use, damage, repairs and previous repaints.

Expect to pay £55-75 per hour labour.

Expect the repanneling (after you have bought the aluminium, and paid for it to be cut to size) and drilled out about 600 rivets and removed the correct screws and their correct body inserts, to take about a week.

Now you need to flat down all the new panels and also removevto bare metal all of the existing paint from the remaining panels and window pans. This will take a further week.

Now you can purchase paint, activator, primer, and etch primer,filler and sundries. Expect to pay £600.

Now you need a proffesional sprayer to do the spraying, after masking, which will take a full day. Now bake in the oven and unmask.

Now apply decals which also will add £££££ depending on what you go for.

In order to get the first class result that you require,probably at best 3-4 weeks work for 1 man working 40 hours a week or two weeks with two men on the job. So around 160 man hours of work at the prices quoted plus parts and materials. You do the maths.

Cheap jobs using cheap paint can be had but the bus will simply cone back with freshly painted dents and in some cases the flies on the front and the chewing gum stuck around the entrance will also be painted over. Don't laugh, I have seen this. You get what you pay for. A full good respray of a car costs £3-4000. You are paying for meticulous preparation which is vital to achieve the high grade end result.

Perhaps a 50 year old Routemaster is not the most suitable or cost effective vehicle choice for your needs.

My bus number (if any): RM531

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

There's no easy answer to this.

Restoring a bus is expensive, even if you go for the cheaper options.

Even something as basic as rivets are costly. The correct ones have to be used and they are not cheap. Screws and inserts, sealants, corrosion inhibitors, panel wipe, tack cloths, polishing compounds and all the sundry items in a quantity to do a bus is an eyebrow raiser.

The only way to keep costs down is to do as much work as possible yourselves. For many preservationists ( and me) this is the best bit. Hugely rewarding and usually challenging to restore something with one's own efforts.

Painting is only ever as good as the amount of preparation. Even with new panels, if they are not prepped correctly then you will have problems. Quite a few repanelled vehicles have paint issues because the new panels were not etch primed and primed on both sides and not sealed properly when fitted. It will pay dividends if the company really knows and understands the idiosyncrasies of the RM. Old panels properly flatted and prepped can be often perfect, but as mentioned can take a lot of time and thus a new panel is often the cheaper option.
However, never throw the old panels away as they can be reused and fully prepared at leisure.

Some owners have paid top dollar for paintwork that is the wrong shade of red or green and decals that are misplaced and/or in the wrong font. It must be truly galling to owners when that happens, but it has, even to some of the most knowledgeable and sharp eyed of owners.

So good solid research and very clear instructions must be laid down in writing to any contractor undertaking the work.
Getting a full quote in writing, with all the specs, paint type and codes and all the intended work is also vital should there be an issue afterwards.

One ex LT coachpainter whose work was outstanding, always used the
motto the "5 'P's" - "Perfect Preparation avoids Piss Poor Performance" and he is right.

As an example, a good paint job on a small car like an MG Midget is now approaching £2000. And that's with most prep being done by oneself.

How many MG Midgets equal a Routemaster? More than a dozen for sure. So in perspective, the quote of £10,000 looks cheap.

Also the paint used. Buses were originally painted with a short life paint and many new buses still are. 5 to 7 years.
Then they are repainted.

It also depends on the planned use of the vehicle. If you intend to put it to work, then it can be painted more cheaply as a service bus, but you will have to factor in reduced longevity and thus a scheduled repaint. It will get knocks and scrapes so it will be easier to repaint repairs.

If it is for upmarket work or preservation, then it needs a more long lasting, durable and higher quality finish to reflect a quality product.

Top of the league in this respect is probably Timebus, whose fleet has a stunning finish, better than any RM ever appeared in it's service days. So it may be worth contacting them and enquiring as to who prepped and refinished their vehicles and to what specifications.

Currently, London United are repainting their fleet of SP class Scanias. The finish and quality looks very good. The refinished buses are looking better than when new. The best I've seen on any current London Bus for a very long time.
But only time will tell if the paint remains good and does not fade or dull down rapidly from the bus wash and road salt etc.
However it may well be worth contacting London United and asking who they are using.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Ensign and a few other operators use these people. http://www.mardencommercials.com/

There is also London Bus and Truck at Northfleet, who have done a lot of RMs and will also do the bodywork.

If your budget is tight, you might want to think of doing the panel replacement yourselves, it's not hard although get the front and rear advert panels (and others) repaired if you can, however, you must get the new panels pre-drilled to pick up the set screws on the lower deck (if it's an RML there may not be any left), but I doubt London will be any cheaper though, London wage rates are higher than Bristol rates.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

A few points to mention if you are looking for a top notch job which you don't want ruined by preparation oversights. Get the electrical system checked over by an auto electrician before a single panel is replaced. There will be miles of redundant or dodgy wiring which needs attention or renewal. The time for a complete rewire is before the vehicle has been painted and not afterwards.

The vehicle has aluminium bodywork,however many of the various fixtures and fittings attached to it are of steel or stainless steel. Dissimilar metals in direct contact are a source of corrosion. Where aluminium is one of the metals involved, it will be the one that corrodes. This will be seen as bubbling in the paintwork most often seen around the driver's step and the various moulding screws. Careful and thorough preparation and barrier priming of fixtures and all fixings is required.

This corrosion problem is made considerably worse if an electrical current is present in the bodywork. This is why there should be no positive or negative connection to the body or chassis. The electrician should be asked to eliminate this at least.

The vehicles suffer from cracks to the framework of the body front bulkhead. Attention to this defect requires the removal of panels for access. If a creaking noise can be heard when sitting at the front downstairs when the bus corners then it is likely that there is a possible problem with this front bulkhead.

Over the years the bus will have been involved in many collisions and bumps which have not always been repaired to the highest standard. The result of this is that the front end panels and particularly the wing and bonnet do not line up properly. A top quality job will exhibit even and narrow panel gaps. This is not easy to achieve. Top quality and lasting repairs to the fibreglass bonnet to achieve proper alignment will take considerable time.
More minor items that will spoil the appearance are damaged drip mouldings and missing trim mouldings.

The front and rear domes and the roof panels will have also suffered from impact damage over the years. In unfavourable light body filler repairs to these and many other areas becomes clearly visible.

Excluding the electrical work, a top quality bodywork refurbishment could easily exceed your £10/15,000 quotes by some margin. Without even seeing the bus or having any knowledge of it, I certainly do not consider that you have been given rip-off quotes. You have merely been warned just how expensive these vehicles are keep in good condition.

I have no connection to either of the following, but I do know that Tilsworthworks near Dunstable and Avery commercials near Leighton Buzzard between them have outshopped some excellent work.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Yes I'd endorse Dave Simmons at Tilsworth, Roy, I thought they just wanted a repaint.

They are called BUS and COACH RESTORATION SERVICES
Unit 3 Leys Yard, Dunstable road.
Tilsworth, Leighton Buzzard.
Bedfordshire, LU7 9PU.

Tel: 07791339415

They do all sorts of London buses and have done RMLs for TimeBus and are bodywork repair specialists, not just coach painters.

Dave posts on here and on Flickr where you can see his work.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/88980514@N04/

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I may be wrong, but I though that these two companies collaborated to some extent with Tilsworths doing all the body work and occasionally shipping out the final paintwork to Averys.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Brian Watkinson
Yes I'd endorse Dave Simmons at Tilsworth, Roy, I thought they just wanted a repaint.

They are called BUS and COACH RESTORATION SERVICES
Unit 3 Leys Yard, Dunstable road.
Tilsworth, Leighton Buzzard.
Bedfordshire, LU7 9PU.

Tel: 07791339415

They do all sorts of London buses and have done RMLs for TimeBus and are bodywork repair specialists, not just coach painters.

Dave posts on here and on Flickr where you can see his work.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/88980514@N04/


I agree to this firm do a very good job but not cheap and will take about six months turnaround

Good luck if you get what you want for under 10K
Harry

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Hi Sally
It sounds like to me you want a top paint std and a lot more than just repaneling' it can take two men two weeks work just to get the front correct if the corners and the bonnet and wing etc need sorting out.

if your bus has had past damage it may be the case that you can't just replace the parts as they won't fit as the inner structure will be out of shape.

you can have a £2.000 blow over the it won't last and will be a waste off money.

I went to the RM60 show and had a good look at RMA58 that's in the London Bus 4 Hire \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Redroutmaster fleet
this bus was undergoing body restoration half of the work had been done and put back on the road to go to the show only.
There are lots of pics of RMA58 at RM60 on the net this will show you how much work there to restore the bodywork on a routemaster.
There engineer Mr Tim Barrington who can be seen on the the redroutemaster.com website who is who page is in charge of the restoration of RMA58 and is responsible for all the maintenance of the ten or so buses in the London Bus 4 Hire \ Redroutmaster fleet, there was a lot of talk at the show saying about the hight standard the RMA was being done to, I guess the restoration will be finished by now so maybe Tim could post some pics on here with comments saying the best to do the work you need doing and the costs etc of the work

Barry

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

With all due respect, Tim Barrington is their mechanic, Dave Simmons does coachwork and the mechanical work himself.
There is nothing on the RedRoutemaster site to suggest they do third party work.
It's a bit daft to say 6 months turn round when we don't know what the work is, a full refurb of a rusted corroded RF with a lot of parts being hand made may take that long, but not an RM re-panel, fully skilled craftsman at Aldenham did the whole bus in 5 days, although parts were available off the shelf.

Wasn't sure who did the paint at Tilsworth Roy, maybe your are right and Averys do it.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

One well known company mentioned already still hasn't finished a bus after five years.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Brian Watkinson
With all due respect, Tim Barrington is their mechanic, Dave Simmons does coachwork and the mechanical work himself.
There is nothing on the RedRoutemaster site to suggest they do third party work.
It's a bit daft to say 6 months turn round when we don't know what the work is, a full refurb of a rusted corroded RF with a lot of parts being hand made may take that long, but not an RM re-panel, fully skilled craftsman at Aldenham did the whole bus in 5 days, although parts were available off the shelf.

Wasn't sure who did the paint at Tilsworth Roy, maybe your are right and Averys do it.


Brian
If the Aldenham works were so good they would still be here.
I was only suggesting that the London Bus 4 Hire \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Red routemaster Fleet engineer MR Tim Birrington post some photos and comments about the good work that's been done to RMA58.

Another of his Buses is Leyland engined RM1357 which was voted one of the top buses at RM60 due to is running so well and the sound it makes.

There also RML2583 this bus has also been mentioned on this forum often as its been seen on the M4 not far from its base at brentford doing over 60 MPH fully loaded.

Mr Barrimgton is also the technical officer of the Routemaster Association and its well Known that London Bus 4 Hire \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Red Routemaster do carry out outside repair work.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I think the rose-tinted spectacles have got a little carried away somewhere. I expect that Martin will put us right shortly.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Barry Evans

Brian
If the Aldenham works were so good they would still be here.
I was only suggesting that the London Bus 4 Hire Red routemaster Fleet engineer MR Tim Birrington post some photos and comments about the good work that's been done to RMA58.

Another of his Buses is Leyland engined RM1357 which was voted one of the top buses at RM60 due to is running so well and the sound it makes.

There also RML2583 this bus has also been mentioned on this forum often as its been seen on the M4 not far from its base at brentford doing over 60 MPH fully loaded.

Mr Barrimgton is also the technical officer of the Routemaster Association and its well Known that London Bus 4 Hire Red Routemaster do carry out outside repair work.
I know who Tim is and what he was at LT and he wasn't a coachmaker or painter which is what this thread is about

Anyone who saw Aldenham produced buses prior to 1967 when standards were dropped by the GLC knows what we produced. I suggest you read up a bit about Aldenham Works and its demise before making ill informed comments again.

If it's "well known" to people that "Tim's company" does third party work, like coachwork and painting, why doesn't their site mention it? Perhaps you can give examples of past clients?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Aldenham Work WERE good at what they done. Anyone with a knowledge of political or social history of the 1980 and 1990s will know why Aldenham was shut and who was responsible for the closure. As political comment is not allowed on this forum, I say no more.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Statement from RedRoutemaster - Correct Information

Just to correct some of incorrect information here:

- RMA58 has been restored by London Bus 4 Hire Engineering in Usk, in South Wales run by Martin Detheridge and his team.

- Our website is a bit out of date (it is awaiting a photo session to update our staff listings).
Since last year, Martin Detheridge has been in charge of our engineering at RedRoutemaster.

- Tim Barrington (JTB Engineering & Restoration Services) now has his own business and recently has provided some additional assistant with the RMA58 restore project in Usk last week, due to a change in our operational deadlines requiring the bus back sooner then planned.

- RMA58 has never had a major re-panel with many many layers of paint having just been painted over each time, it also had suffered a front end damage previous to RedRoutemaster ownership which had seen it fitted with a standard RM bonnet cut down. This has now been restored with a RMA bonnet and associated bits.

We are very happy with the work that has been done in Usk by Martin and his team.

- RML2583 and Leyland RM1357 are part of the London Bus 4 Hire fleet and also maintained by Martin Detheridge.

- London Bus 4 Hire Engineering advertised both at RM60 in the event program and in the Routemaster 60 magazine. You can speak with Martin at 02920 277 665 or via info@londonbus4hire.com for more information London Bus 4 Hire Engineering facilities.

I hope this clears the air, and the correct credit goes to the right people for the work and the vehicles they love, restore, and keep running for us all to enjoy.

Regards

Adam Shailes
Managing Director
RedRoutemaster

My bus number (if any): RML2366 RML2683 RMA58 RML2323 RM1086 DMS259

Re: Statement from RedRoutemaster - Correct Information

To add my tuppence worth (and in agreement with Roy) if you are taking panels off, for crying out loud have the wiring checked at the same time. It is often overlooked and like the person that asked for a house rewire two weeks after completing her kitchen refit, I have had people with wonderfully restored Routemasters, inside and out, ask me to sort out electrical problems.

The look on the faces of both Mrs kitchen lady and the Mr Routemaster owner when I suggested we will be undoing their hard work is something to behold.

I was asked to price an RM rewire recently and the price was clearly a problem. I am reluctant to even bother nowadays as few want to/can pay what I want to do a proper job. I am surprised that we have not had buses bursting into flames with the state of some bus wiring. Many RM's still have original aluminium wiring with dilapidated insulation, possibly causing the earth faults many experience.

Many think they can do it their selves and yet electricians were a trade even LT knew they needed to keep even when other trades were being de-skilled (if you can p*$£ you can paint was LT's thought thus painters were laid off as well as trimmers).

On that subject, why is it that so many buses are sprayed when the garages hand painted. I plan on my RML being hand painted. Is that wrong?

I think we should produce a list of the recommended order that owners should perhaps restore their buses. Perhaps:

Mechanical items
Structural parts
Electrical
External body (as in refit/replace those items removed for the electrician. It is easier to rewire from outside)
Interior body (ditto electrical work)
and only then repaint, ad decals and fit the pretty parts

Feel free to elaborate on your area of expertise

David

PS. I will do rewires at my place in chesterfield for less than me travelling and staying away. It will take at least 10 days but will be a first class job with correct size cables and protection. We can restore older systems ( e.g. an "engine off" by something that feels like an arens cable) improve some items and offer modern monitoring of engine and water etc. We can fit the parts you have sourced such as indicator ears and we can re panel your bus with aluminium cut and drilled in our fabrication shop.

My bus number (if any): RML 2276 M1001 T806

Re: Statement from RedRoutemaster - Correct Information

No no no David, surely you've got it wrong:

pretty paint and decals, shiny bits inside, original indicators..... :) Omigosh, why doesn't my bus start?? :(

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

If we are setting the record straight.....

We do use (and recommend) Avery's for repaints, they are local for us and they are (in my opinion) the best in the business. My farther and co-restorer; Brian (another one), does all our interior painting and any localised external parts/panels for accident repairs etc.

We also have a painter right next door to us: V&G Commercial Re-finishers, they are very competent painters and will do a straight forward repaint (no re-paneling) for around half the price of Avery's, we have used them for two GS's, three or four RF's and an RT(4777).

As far as Timebus goes i think Brian may have got mixed up, we haven't done an that much external work for them on their main RM/RML fleet but in the past we have supplied interior restoration/conversions for their RF & RLH's, all our major RML restoration work has come via "Thisbus.com".


Harry Hunt
I agree to this firm do a very good job but not cheap and will take about six months turnaround

Good luck if you get what you want for under 10K
Harry


Harry, i'm glad you like our work but are you serious..... "Not cheap", not cheap compared to what? voluntary work?

Also, sorry it took "six months" to re-panel your bus, which one was it?

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

As mentioned above while the panels are off you might as well refabricate any steel support brackets which have rotted - there's bound to be several especially around the back end - along with the steel strips which clamp to the aluminium wheel arches which will have corroded where they join - There's bound to be some framing that needs straightening out - what starts off as a simple repanel and paint can turn in to a bit of a restoration unless you just want to hide it all again for a bigger job for someone in the future ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Sally Harris


Hi All

we are getting a Routemaster but the body work is very is in very poor condition it will need all new side panels replacing the bonnet and front wing repairing plus all top corner panels sorting put.
we want a full respray to a 1st class std in 2 pack paint but so far the cheapest price quoted is £10.000.

We feel because its a routemaster we are being ripped off, we had one price of £15.000 that firm tried to tell it would take loads of man hours to make it look good again.

I guess it would be loads of man hours if the guys drink tea all day instead of working on the bus.

we are from Bristol and are happy to take the bus to london if it can be done cheaper any Recommenendations please with photos of samples of work done.

PS we also need it bringing up HGV test std

Thank You

Sally


Sally,

With the bus as you describe, £10,000 is about the right price with the preparation work involved then the paint being applied. I know this very well as I have just had my RML re-panelled and repainted and that cost my just under £10,000. The work involved is amazing and you would be looking at least 4 – 6 weeks total time including final painting. Anything less and I would question what the depth of the prep work is.

Mine was carried out by Avery’s Garage near Leyton Buzzard and they have done a number of RM’s over the years (check out their Facebook page). I travelled up from Bristol based on several recommendations. I have to say I can see where every penny went when I look at her now. I would recommend Avery’s if anyone who wants a quality job. This will come at a price and they refuse to cut any corners – trust me here! If you search RML2344 in flickr and sort by ‘most recent’ you will see the quality of the paint work. Any photos without the period adverts on are before the repaint was carried out.

Sally, which is your RM? I thought I knew all the RM’s which were in the Bristol area (where I am based).

My experience of bus preservation, and I have been doing it a while now, no one will bump the price up just because it’s a Routemaster. This might be true for initial purchase but any garage (painter or other wise) won’t really care. The vast majority of people outside London won’t even know what a Routemaster is. Certainly in Bristol it’s just a ‘London Bus’ and to be honest if I was to paint any of my half cab buses red they would all just be ‘London Buses’!

CUV344C : 1965 AEC Routemaster / Park Royal. H40/32R. ( RML2344 )

Regards,
Tom.

My bus number (if any): RML2344

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I like the way Sally lit the touch paper with this post and as yet has not returned with any comments:-)

Plenty of advice given here and opinions.

For my tuppence worth, it's not cheap to carry out this kind of refurb and you need to have plenty of patience.

There is a cheaper way of doing it - do it yourself. I've been told that people who have gone down that route have saved themselves a considerable amount of money but have taken up to 7 years to do the job. A labour of love.

You can save some money by not requiring the exact same specification of the original build and can achieve a good result with such an approach - it depends upon your own requirements. Some people need it to be absolutely perfect - completely spot on.

In my experience, the closer to London that the partner of choice is, the more that it will cost you. Hourly rates are higher closer to London. Sally, you may want to consider looking further afield for the work you want done. Consider splitting the repairs/ refurb from the paint job. Firms that do the repairs tend to be busier that paint shops.

Don't let the comments put you off getting your bus, but go into it with your eyes wide open.

Refurbishment of the seats alone in my RT will come to £5k and I think that is actually quite reasonable. They are going to take 6 months to get done too; sometimes you cannot rush these things.

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Without wishing to get onto RTs, the previous owner of your bus took the "not requiring the exact same specification" route and how much will it cost to make that side of the bus safe?

Cushion and squab refurbishment at £5k sounds a bit high, have you looked at the link on the ROOF website?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

There have been some very good points and experiences made on this thread and I do hope Sally has read them and responds as painful disheartening or eye opening ...or watering that, that some of it may may be. It is good solid information. And better to be wised up beforehand than angry, disappointed or broke afterwards.

Things have drifted off topic as it relates to an exterior repaint little but nonetheless it has spawned a rather interesting thread.

Mark Kehoe hit the nail on the head when it comes to doing the exterior body and David Colin likewise, with both electrical advice and a schedule of priorities. Also those who pointed out dealing with problem areas when panels are off.
Simply because this is prudent and undoing finished work is both costly and irritating.

As Mark indicates, Nothing beats doing it yourself and getting it right and seeing the end result. For preservationists that's the fun.
(I also knew the painter who used the 5Ps ( He was at Cricklewood for many years) and have used that motto ever since! ) And his Brush coachpainting David, was so good, it was impossible to tell how the bus had been painted.

But if it is for a business venture, then time rules over quality and costs apply for bringing in labour and services for things that cannot be done in reasonable time on your own.

But also revealed is the huge differences in costs for some services. There is clearly some lack of idea of what certain skills and materials really cost and what some charge. For once, people's honesty has revealed this.

It also reveals how unsubstantiated, unknowledgeable or confused inputs can cause consternation.

One of the worst things in Bus operation and preservation is the secrecy and constant shifting of sands caused by the well meaning but ill informed and chancers muddying the waters. Something that has lead to some right old spats on 'the other channel's.

It's welcome to see a company answer and clear the air in a open and honest way laying out the facts clearly. Giving those individuals and businesses clear recognition for their correct input.

Aldenham did do a very thorough job when it was operating properly. It's also true that political meddling, policies and a myriad of interventions did for it. Far too political for this site and complex enough probably for a book filled with more words than pictures no doubt!

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Hello again all

Thank you all for your advice on this, I must admit there seems to be a bit more than just fitting new panels and a coat of paint.

Our RM has just come back from poland and needs a lot of love and care and lots of parts replacing
Things like the stop flag thats been taped up / water pump is leaking and no 2nd gear.

The bus is in Bristol and we don't want to drive it until the brakes are sorted out,its still fitted with its AEC engine that runs very well.

Thanks to the advise on this forum we have now made arrangements with Martin Detheridge from London Bus 4 Hire / Red Routmaster.com to come and look at the bus and advise on a plan of action and cost etc.

London Bus 4 Hire is based in Usk, Monmouthshire so they are only 25 miles away from Bristol.

I will keep you posted

Sally

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

A good choice Sally,
Hope you have found all this enlightening at the very least.

Martin is a knowledgable, reputable and reliable contact.

Good Luck

MK

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Hi Sally,

The direct answer to your question is..

Speak to Rob Duker 07860649486. He will be able to help you.

Cheers

Andy

My bus number (if any): many!

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Andy h
Hi Sally,

The direct answer to your question is..

Speak to Rob Duker 07860649486. He will be able to help you.

Cheers

Andy


Thank you for the info Andy H But its a bit late,
It would be a bit rude for me to cancel Martin Detheridge (LB4H) and who is also Local to us ???
After making some enquiries in the world of Routemasters if he is as good as his reputation we will have nothing to worry about :)

The odd thing is this Routemaster was found in a corner of a old factory building that's on a property my Husband has not long purchased in Poland,
We did not know Routemaster was in the building till the demolition crew went in.

Don’t ask what fleet number it is as its on Polish plates and has been given a new vin number by the Polish DVLA equivalent.

Martin will over later so I should have more info once he has inspected the RM.

I will keep you posted

Thanks Guys

Sally

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Good luck with it Sally, Martin's reputation is second to none as his restoration of RM1357 was remarkable. Could you post photos of your bus one the group?

My bus number (if any): RM967 (Driver & Restoration Consultant, bus owned by Tom Ireland)

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Brian Watkinson
Without wishing to get onto RTs, the previous owner of your bus took the "not requiring the exact same specification" route and how much will it cost to make that side of the bus safe?

Cushion and squab refurbishment at £5k sounds a bit high, have you looked at the link on the ROOF website?


Actually, it appears my bus had taken a route of "anything will do". We found putty on the front dome. I wasn't referring to work done on my bus previously when I was talking about purist standards.

It sounds as though Sally may also find some horrors. But getting an expert opinion is exactly the right way forward. Sally and her husband have been fortunate enough to have acquired a treasure. An expert opinion will determine whether it is worth bringing it back to life. There have been valid remarks elsewhere about whether all old buses should survive or if some should become donors to others.

The cost for my seats is to replace all the foam, original moquette and new leather. It's costed by a professional upholsterer with a small but long established business and good reputation for high quality. The cost is comparable to coachbuilders. Some of the info to get this sorted came from you and elsewhere on this forum, demonstrating just how useful this site and the valuable input is.

Good luck Sally. We're all on the edge of our seats waiting to find out what you have and what the verdict is. Thank heavens it didn't just get lost to scrap in Poland before you saved it.

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I will endorse what has already been said regarding Martin. Although almost at opposite ends of the country, we speak quite frequently about what we have been doing or about some issue we have come across in which the other may be interested. Sometimes it is to sympathise over what a real pain these buses can be and the hours of 'lost time' involved in fixing them, about which the customer generally knows nothing. Certainly don't mention AEC water pumps to anyone who has had to deal with the things. Martin will give a realistic appraisal of what can be seen to need attention and advise accordingly.

Experience brings the ability to guess at what complications may arise and build that into any estimate, but it must be remembered that however skilled anyone is they do not possess X ray eyes nor a crystal ball. Although the buses may all look the same, it might take far longer to do what appears to be the same job to bus A, as it does to bus B and almost certainly longer than enthusiasts' folklore claims. These are elderly vehicles which have had a hard life, been bashed about and bodged over and over again, and finally withdrawn from service because they are worn out.

Some jobs go a breeze, another day whoa! Welcome to old buses.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Jack Norie

(I also knew the painter who used the 5Ps ( He was at Cricklewood for many years) and have used that motto ever since! ) And his Brush coachpainting David, was so good, it was impossible to tell how the bus had been painted.

Not sure if that painter was ex Aldenham Jack but the 5 ps were drummed in all round the Works by the Foremen, At one time they were short of painters and promoted some brush hands (those who did the rubbing down, primer and rolling of ceilings). To get promoted there was an RT middle section on a jig opposite the spray booths that had to be prepared, hand painted and the transfer applied.
The finish on that was at times was like it had been sprayed. Of course some brush hands were not up to it as could be seen from the odd runs that escaped the Inspectors.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Sally

To confirm what others have said, Martin is 100% honest and very knowlegeable, he did work on both of the Routemasters I have owned and without hesitation I would recommend him. London does not have the monopoly of Routemaster knowledge when it comes to maintenance, a good engineer anywhere will be able to understand these buses, they are not rocket science.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I reckon some parts ARE rocket science as the brakes were designed for military use :)!! I've found very few people outside the UK understand the braking system, and the majority here don't know how to look after the brakes either, with so many driving around blissfully unaware that the STOP sign in the window means what it says, but we've discussed that elsewhere on here.

I know of a factory south of Amsterdam that has a Bristol Lodekka trapped inside! The owner parked the bus in the factory about 15 years ago, rented the factory and the tenant put a load of machinery round the bus! The only way out is by crane.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I did say a good engineer anywhere. The trouble is most work nowadays is simply changing components parrot fashion. The people you deal with Roy sound clueless, but are they engineers or clueless owners.
There are lots of good engineers some of whom frequent this forum, who it matters not where they come from or where they are located in the country, well capable of looking after a Routemaster bus and understanding its systems including the braking system. How many of the employees of the so called good London companies have an LT background with Routemaster maintenance.

Unfortunately Roy you seem to see a lot of the bad things which I agree is not correct, but there are a lot of good people out there as well and if the bad ones are providing you with paid work correcting all these problems then keep up the good work.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Most of the bad things I see are from abroad, remembering that the buses probably weren't the best maintained in their last year or so in London, then have been thrashed around the continent for years with little or no maintenance. Mind you, there's a few here in the same sort of state!

Engineers abroad, competent or otherwise simply have not come cross the Lockheed RM brake system!

It sounds like this is what has happened to Sally's find.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I thought that Park Royal Vehicles did not go over to spray painting until the seventies, so RM,s would have been splendidly hand painted with spirit based paint when delivered. Another point is that preserved buses do not suffer the daily visit to the garage bus wash, getting mercilessly covered in evil detergents and scrubbed by fierce revolving brushes. I know the 9H fleet was repainted in 2011/2012, and some,(1562, 1640, and 1218) turned very dull, very quickly, partly as a result of this. The last two to be painted, 1913, and 1627,(the Eric Sykes bus), kept their brilliant shine.

My bus number (if any): with RT 1702

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Park Royal; used a mix of stove enamelling, spray painting and brush painting.

Only detailing was brush applied as well as final pre delivery quality refinishing both at PRV and AEC.

Production Routemasters were assembled with a large proportion of the vehicles pre-painted.

Almost all metal components were etch primed and then stove enamelled or sprayed in 'Chiswick Pink', a rather lethal concoction which was altered during the early 1960s. At a similar time, lead and cadmium levels were reduced in red and yellow pigments for health reasons. LT was the first major organisation to identify and reduce lead in paint. Not because of health but for weight saving! The health factor was a bonus a few years later when it was identified as a health hazard. ( They were somewhat slower on the uptake when it came to asbestos!)

The roof sections and window panels were then initially stove enamelled in red and the GRP parts were also gel coated in the correct shade of LT Red. Some panels that were alloy originally and later superceeded with GRP were also body coloured.

The roof treatment was intended to be durable, resistant to fade, peeling and cracking, which it was but turned out to be a false economy as what was forgotten was the abrasive effect of trees and bus washes which wore the coating away. But for mass production, pre painted modules was very cost effective.

There were also issues with dirt and diesel ingressing into the GRP and the gel coat cracking and they were later painted.

Brush painting was used on the finishing and quality line and for more complex liveries. Most noticeable was the strapping on the interior ceilings which was hand painted while the panels were stove enamelled, after a while the brush painted items would visibly alter in colour.

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Mark Kehoe
...Brush painting was used on the finishing and quality line and for more complex liveries. Most noticeable was the strapping on the interior ceilings which was hand painted while the panels were stove enamelled, after a while the brush painted items would visibly alter in colour.

Not sure why we are on Park Royal but I think you are getting Aldenham and Park Royal confused.
All the new interior components of RM roofs were stove enamelled by Park Royal including the screw heads.
Aldenham hand painted strap plates and some roof panels and screw heads on overhaul where necessary (although most RM interior roofs were just washed), it was this paint that browned with damp and smoke.

In the Body Accident Shop at Aldenham, roof panels, strap plates, mouldings and screw heads were all stove enamelled prior to fitment although the screw heads painting was not that successful as the paint chipped off when the screws were tightened.Stove enamelling was also tried with exterior panel set screws in the Accident Shop but saved little time or paint!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Brian Watkinson

Not sure why we are on Park Royal but I think you are getting Aldenham and Park Royal confused.


possibly to part answer my (hidden amongst other items) question. Why are bus owners spraying their buses when, it appeared to me in my garage days, buses tended to be hand painted? I seem to remember some buses were fully repainted in the garages. I perhaps wrongly assumed they were hand painted at Aldenham during overhaul. Of course if people are trying to get the new AEC/Park royal look perhaps spraying is perhaps the way but if they are after an in service, garage maintained look the perhaps hand painting is better.

I had planned to have my buses painted rather than sprayed.

David

My bus number (if any): RML 2276 M1001 T806

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Ah, well as you know David, all garage paint work was by hand including repainting complete buses, none had a spray booth of nay description, but some had roof gantries. Quite a few RT re-certs were repainted in the garages and Hounslow and Brixton amongst others repainted the RTL Aldenham staff buses.
We spray our buses, finish is better and modern spray paints are more durable than most brush paints.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Brian Watkinson
Ah, well as you know David, all garage paint work was by hand including repainting complete buses, none had a spray booth of nay description, but some had roof gantries. Quite a few RT re-certs were repainted in the garages and Hounslow and Brixton amongst others repainted the RTL Aldenham staff buses.
We spray our buses, finish is better and modern spray paints are more durable than most brush paints.


My bus had around 40 years service. She had four bodies in a little under 20 years, so roughly five years per body. Refurbishment took place in the nineties so presumably another respray. Were significant amounts repainted in between overhauls in the garages or were they more likely to have retained the sprayed look with panel repairs only hand painted?

Thus at any given time would my bus have been more or less likely to have a hand painted finish?

As I would like an in use appearance rather than a just built look (and given the difficulties in reproducing the latter without criticism from some) perhaps hand painting is more appropriate. Discuss!

David

My bus number (if any): RML 2276 M1001 T806

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Presumably you are talking about your RML it will be 50 years old next August.

It has had three overhauls and 2 inter overhaul repaints. Current body is B2303 which was new 9/65.
All the painting of the bodies at overhaul or repaint would have been by spray paint and oven baked at Aldenham.
Garages didn't do inter overhaul repaints on RMs. They only did a few RTs after recertification.
When it was refurbished your RML was spray painted using two pack paint which is supposed to be more durable.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

Brian

As a matter of interest - and I don`t know the answer to this - what form of extra prep (if any) was undertaken when a Lincoln Green body was destined to become LT red? I`m guessing probably not much given the number of RT`s that went from green to red and vice versa. Or in those days was prep work more extensive?

Re: Routemaster Repaint Ripoff


I don't believe there was any extra work done on buses going from green to red and vice-versa Neil. As far as I remember they were all treated the same in the prep shop irrespective of colour they were to receive.

However,the intention to change the stock number at least to another colour was detailed on the Overhaul Programme for buses to come into the Works, this programme also had paint code against some buses which referred to the work to be done or had been done, on the roofs and domes.

I have not been able to get to the bottom of the paint codes. They were alphabetical A, B, C, D and appeared to differ in the numbers of coats of paint applied. Some roofs were certainly stripped completely in the dope shop and primered and undercoated by hand prior to going to the paint line, others were just rubbed down.

In addition, en I was first there in 1965 I saw roof only repaints being done on both RTs and RFs, this was long before "inter overhaul" repaints.
As mentioned earlier, this repainting was recorded on the Overhaul Programme, but all I have been able to establish for sure was that a "C" was 3 coats and a "D" 4 coats, but of primer, colour coat, I don't know.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458, RM 1585 and loads of RTs

Routemaster Repaint Ripoff

I'm locking this thread for no other reason than it has become too long at 45 posts. Please open a new thread if there are any points you wish to be discussed further.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471. 2213 & GS17