RM 2008 at the Wimbledon Village end of Wimbledon Common Dec 12 1981.
For a non central London route, the 93`s had a good mix of busy urban roads in Putney, Wimbledon and Morden plus some good sections of leafy backdrops. And a couple of steep hills that always brought out the best sounds of a Leyland engine. Around a third of the RM fleet at Sutton at this time were Leylands.

The only Leyland-engined Routemaster out of the thirty five I drove at Kelvin Central was RM538 Neil and what a workhorse of a bus that was as hills presented no problems to it.I remember only having to drop only one gear in it going up the very steep Fernhill in Glasgow's Rutherglen, so yes, the Leylands WERE powerful indeed.

My bus number (if any): RM967 (Driver/Restoration consultant)

I remember RM 2008 when I was a Conductor at Hendon. It had been there from new and had not been for it's first overhaul. It was AEC powered in those days.

My bus number (if any): RM 912

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

NB had a smattering of Leylands and they were quite popular with the drivers on certain turns.
A few were put on the heavy loading duties as they were so good at pulling full loadings.
On I remember was RM1420 which was a very good all round vehicle and I think 2075.
I remember on of the foremen trying to persuade the late Geoff Rixon to adopt a Leyland. He was not having any of it!!
254 was the only bus for him! And what a bus it became.

I don't know if you have seen the documentary about the Dalston & Mortlake Garage Routemasters on the 9 route Neil during the 1970s. One of the many books I have about RMs shows Mortlake full of CLT-reg RMs, were they ALL Leyland-engined and was David Cooper's RM1403 one of them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AFAy1ROfEw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6Txpa-Eq8

My bus number (if any): RM967 (Driver/Restoration consultant)

Yes, Graham, I`m very aware of The Nine Road film. I would have liked to have been in it but it was made in the Summer of 1974 and I was at Tottenham Garage at that time - and two years away from going to Mortlake. But the film is full of people that I subsequently worked with and knew well - not just at Mortlake but others at Dalston and route control officials too. I ended up crewed permanently with the conductress who featured a lot in the film, Joan - and on the closure of Mortlake we were crewed together at Stamford Brook. I still keep in touch with her and spent an afternoon with her in London just a couple of weeks ago. The Nine Road film really captures so many things that we look back on with fondness regarding LT at that time.

Yes, Mortlake was 100% Leyland engine RM`s in its main, regular, allocation for many years. The only garage to be so. We did get occasional AEC engine RM`s as overhaul cover and special advertising livery buses too. We also had two AEC RM`s that were trialling projects for the Experimental Shop at Chiswick. The bus that latterly became RM 1403 spent all of its working life at Mortlake from 1962 when the conversion of the 73`s brought in many new RM`s in the 1200 and 1300 range. These were all (new - not second hand as has been suggested) Leylands as were the many 1500 series RM`s that arrived for the conversion of the 9`s the following year. Another lesser known fact is that with the closure of the original Norwood Garage and of Middle Row Garage, Mortlake became the last garage on LT to operate nothing other than RM`s.

Yes of course Neil,the 37/73 replacements were of the first production batches of RMs with Leyland engines.I really should have remembered the Leyland engine was a 9.8 as it's the same engine as the RTL, but all were downrated to 115bhp.

The Leyland RM engines were renowned for the air inlet getting blocked and on worn engines this resulted in oil coming up the filler and the dipstick tube, coating the N/S wing with oil.This was often seen at the run-in.
A remedy tried was cleaning out the inlet more regularly and this reduced the occurrence, however, the larger garages didn't always have the time to do this.

When an odd RT arrived at Wandsworth in 1963, a lot of the drivers thought how much more powerful it was than the RTLs, when in fact the RTLs had the bigger engine. The RT engine just sounded more throaty and powerful. A well set up fuel pump makes a lot of difference to the engine be it Leyland or AEC.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

My bus number (if any): RM967 (Driver/Restoration consultant)

Neil, Sorry but not quite right about the last all Routemaster garage. Kingston sneaked in and took that honour by a few months until closure (the first time) in January 1984. A bit cheeky really as we had only been completely RM for a short spell following transfer of all the OPO work to Norbiton.

My bus number (if any): RMC1469

True, Paul, that did happen at Kingston - but it still allowed Mortlake to be the last garage to operate nothing other than RM`s. We didn`t have any RF`s or BL`s as no bus type other than RM`s had operated out of Mortlake since the RTL`s went in 1963. We very nearly gained an RT for service in 1976 when one arrived, as many did at that time in various garages, to cover for RM shortages. Fresh from repaint, RT 4619 looked good but the folly of allocating it to an all RM garage quickly became obvious not so much from a lack of blinds as RM blinds could have been adapted/masked as was the case elsewhere, but there were dozens of drivers who would have been entitled to re-training having not driven one for thirteen years. It stayed just a few days unused and then went to New Cross.

ISTR reading in an early LBPG newsletter by the late Alan Allmey that Sutton was like a throwback to the 1950's in 1971, with nothing but RTs and RFs. Not an RM in sight there in those days!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Ah! But Kingston did not have continuous RM operation from new whereas Mortlake did.

By the time of the closure K was an (albeit independent) outstation of NB or would have been completely if LRT had it's way.

It was a RF/RT depot then later mixed about a bit with the protracted Petersham road closure.

NB did had RMs from brand new but lost them and the key Route 65 remained solidly RT up till October1975 (or was it 1978- can't remember now).
I can remember that the RMs received to replace the RTs were a right motley batch of cast offs. The RTs were in much better overall condition.
There were a lot of passenger complaints, mainly over heating...or rather the lack of it.

Was that the passengers overheating, the buses overheating or complaints over heating?? :)

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Picking up on what Roy mentioned, there were quite a few garages that made it into the 1970`s without an allocation of Routemasters. Along with Sutton, I recall Catford particularly as a place where RT`s dominated. Elmers End was a peculiar instance of having a big share in a major route (12) but hanging on to RT`s whilst other contributing garages had RM`s. Sidcup came late to RM operation but the place that waited longest for Routemasters was Seven Kings. I`m sure I wasn`t the only one who thought that this would be the garage that operated the last RT`s in service.

How about a trivia question?

Of all the garages in existence when the last Routemasters were delivered, which were the only ones never to operate any variants of the type? This applies only to red Routemasters in London Transport ownership - not green ones.

Edgware is the obvious one. Harrow Weald was blacklisted for a very long time but eventually got them on the 140. I could say Twickenham falls into the category described, but somebody will tell me that it closed in 1970, before Routemasters and OPO completed the takeover from RTs. Presumably there are others like Twickenham that closed. Perhaps you should narrow it down to those garages still open either when the RTs ended in 1979 or the big OPO conversions of the mid 80s?

My bus number (if any): RMC1469

Of the four garages concerned you`ve got two of them straight off.
Twickenham does indeed count. Edgware too - and I was being careful to refer to LT days.
That leaves two more that existed long into Routemaster days but never operated them.

Loughton ?

Bexleyheath :)

Abbey Wood?

Sorry Jack, Abbey Wood had RM`s! I think it was last year that I posted some pics on here that had been taken in Abbey Wood Garage with RM`s present.

It was Loughton and Bexleyheath (along with Edgware and Twickenham) that never operated Routemasters in service.

The spare capacity at Loughton and Bexleyheath was often used for storage of Routemasters in varying circumstances. Loughton was always an under-used garage. Am I right in thinking that it was built in 1954 on the premise of a new town being developed in the vicinity that would have increased the demand locally for bus services - which probably would have later resulted in the placement of Routemasters.

Who would have thought that, years after closure, Twickenham Garage would not only still exist but have many preserved RM`s inside it! The garage is long gone now. I walked round there a few months back and the huge evergreen oak tree that used to drape its branches over RT roofs and take the paint off is the only thing remaining!

Edgware was a strange garage in `proper` LT times. With almost all of its buses in the open and only the workshop area offering any cover, `garage` was an over-statement. No other garage had the majority of its allocation parked outside. The downside to so doing was no doubt quickly realised with each snowfall - which sort of takes us back to where this thread begun!

Neil

Edgware, now that brings back a lot of memories apart from being born there. I remember travelling home from work on a RM on the 113 route to Edgware in around 1968, they were garaged at Hendon were they.

The garage wasn't very big and I do remember in the 1950's lots of RT's and of course one of my favourites the TD type waiting in the front of the station on the 240A route to Mill Hill East. Looking back it seems quite strange now to think the TD buses had a conductor in the good old LT days.

Hi Ed

The 113`s came from Hendon. A garage, like so many, in an area sought after for residential development and thus no longer there. From my bus spotting days I remember Hendon Garage having a lot of RM`s in the 2200 range and also a lot in the low 2000 range - these had the illuminated offside adverts which were quite a novelty then and always in use for `outside` advertisers who were presumably happy to pay the enhanced rate for a premium site. Don`t recall LT `in house` adverts being in that external illuminated box often or at all. I think Dulux paint was the main advertiser for these sites when new.

I remember Finchley Road / Baker Street / Oxford Street routes being a good place to see RM`s with illuminated adverts as 2 route had lots of RM`s with them too along with Hendon`s 13`s and 113`s . These buses (and similarly equipped RML`s) were always allocated to garages with central London routes - either as new or by re-allocating to put them into the maximum catchment areas for advertisers to justify the uplift in rate. At the peak of popularity these buses were never to be found on outer suburban routes. Sad how those offside illuminated boxes fell from favour by the late 1970`s and by the early 1980`s were either empty or had conventional vinyls stuck over the Perspex frames.

I can just remember seeing the TD`s as a youngster. Same as I can remember Trolleybuses at Barnet Church! Seems improbable that RF`s also had a conductor - trying to stand out of the way of people boarding and alighting must have been a challenge. Bad enough being in the way as a conductor on the platform of RT`s.

Those buses with that illuminated offside would be really good if around now. With the space available and LED and flat screen technology, the visual opportunities would be amazing for advertising.

I am surprised that the basic design has not been taken up and incorporated into a modern bus. They do have some stuff using leds and the existing frame type panels but it's still very restrictive. The space in the RM was for the technology of the day but now is a space to pack in so much more.

Sadly good creative advertising is at a low in the UK at the moment, the really great age of creativity was the mid sixties to the late 80s. But a resurgence might come again.

Let's advertise for some creative advertising!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Hello Neil

A few years ago when working regularly in London I visited most of the Garages or garage sites listed in the 'LT Garages since 1948' book. LT buildings and the business itself have always held far more fascination for me than buses. I took photographs from as near to the same position as possible including the Hendon site. I believe the residential building that replaced Hendon Garage has a lot of young people or students. While i was there an adjacent house owner started a conversation and said she much preferred the garage as it was much quieter than the new residents!

I will try to find the pictures although you will need the original book to compare

best regards

David

My bus number (if any): M1001, RML2276, T806

Now that would be a typical brief set by creative directors in my student days!

Got me thinking though.

Can anyone remember the Polo ads applied to the roofs of RMs around 1971?

For a short time we were living in a Luxury apartment in Prices Gate on the 8th floor.
From my bedroom I could watch the buses going up and down Knightsbridge.
They only on 52s which was at the time the most frequent bus along the road.
You could not see any evidence of the ads from the ground but really visible from several floors up.

I can remember the roof adverts!
Seem to recall these were trialled on RM 1977 and then fifty buses were done. Most, maybe all, were in the late 1900`s range and were possibly done on repaint in the late 1960`s or overhaul in the early 1970`s.
They involved long, narrow, metal strips fixed longways to either side of the flat roof (not the curved edge above the windows) in a way that they faced outwards. We didn`t have vinyl adverts then so I seem to recall that the advert was very basic in design with just the advertisers name painted in large letters. Gordon`s Gin was one of the main contracts.

And because the buses involved were also fitted with offside illuminated adverts, the `Central London` decree applied which obviously made sense in that a higher proportion of people in high rise offices would look down and see the roof adverts. So, Muswell Hill RM`s on the 134`s had roof advert buses whilst Potters Bar RM`s on the 134`s didn`t. The difference being that the route worked for most of the time in two portions: Potters Bar to Archway and Friern Barnet to Pimlico so the latter section justified roof adverts. I don`t think the craze lasted very long - possibly only for the duration of the initial contract. Maybe just a year or two. I don`t think any contract was replaced by a subsequent one but perhaps someone else can add to this topic.......

Best start a new topic for adverts.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

The RMs at Upton Park on the 15s had Gordon's ads on the roof. They appear to be a sort of vinyl,for some reason I thought they were metal plates. One of them was the RM from Upton Park hit by a crane in the City.
One shown here
http://http://www.yellins.co.uk/transporthistory/bus5/roof-add.html

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

I`m sure they were metal plates. Seem to recall reading something about how they had to made and fitted in a way that didn`t cause them to be damaged by the roof drag of the bus wash. Did we have vinyl ads then?

This interesting thread, starting with another of Neil G's excellent photos, has become very long and unwieldy so I am locking it and, as suggested by Roy the Bus starting another on bus adverts.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471 & 2213. GS17