Does anyone have any technical drawings / information regarding the RT riser?

I believe it is the riser, although I have heard mention of the bulkhead box. In this case it is for Park Royal RT3 body - the structure forward of the platform that rests on the tail end of the chassis and to which the platform is attached. Mine could be patched up, but that has been done previously and the advice is to construct a new one. A previous restoration of the platform was inadequate and was never going to last long enough and I am keen to get this done right. There are some great pictures available on the You Tube videos that Dave Simmons has posted of RT restorations, but I'm actually looking for detail.

Many thanks in advance.

Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Steve,
I do have a drawing for the riser, which you are welcome to have a copy.
I have taken a pic of it, but if you are interested I can go to Prontoprint some time.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30266527@N02/16660098338/

Regards

Rob

My bus number (if any): RF12

Rob,

I would be very grateful if I can get a copy of it. The detail is lost in the photo, but thank you for posting it. I would not have expected that it is tapered, it looks as though it is rectangular, although the offside is obscured somewhat (can ascertain that side is in good condition).

The riser has been modified in the past with discs welded to the forward facing side, covering the circular tubes. This appears to be intended to stop water that might be splashed up from the rear wheels from getting through and causing corrosion. It wasn't worth the effort as it has splashed up from beneath and corroded the lower rear facing edge anyway. The front facing edge is in remarkably good condition.

Here are some photos:

http://www.rt3316.com/images/DSC00584.jpg
http://www.rt3316.com/images/DSC00602.jpg
http://www.rt3316.com/images/DSC00610.jpg

If it is more convenient I can pop round with my camera and take a high res photo (I've been accused of my photos being too high res and take too long to load, although the ones above have been resized down).

thanks,
Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Hi Steve - the riser on open platform buses is usually tapered as the platform slopes slightly to allow the rain water to drain off. As you say there is not enough of yours left for this to be apparent.

My bus number (if any): RML 2747

Also the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Society LVVS recently replaced the riser on the green RT up there - the guy who did it found it quite a hard job so may be worth having a chat with him as well - they have a very extensive running day on Easter Sunday.

My bus number (if any): RML 2747

Steve
Replacing a riser entails lifting the body, problem is the place you lift/jack the body is the platform riser!

The side you show is not the important side, the other face is, that is the one that holds the platform bars in place, if that is as bad as this side, you will have to change the riser. The corrosion at the lower edge of the riser on the platform side is caused by water getting in from the platform covering and having nowhere to go!

Like the one in Rob's drawing you have an original platform riser, the later ones are solid without the weight reducing holes. Patches were welded over the holes on overhaul both sides to stitch up cracks, which is why later ones don't have these holes! The later RT8/2 bodies also had the modernised risers.

AS far as I know a riser has only been changed in situ once, as Graham says by the Lincolnshire Museum. How they did it was portrayed in one of the Enthusiast magazines. I'm not sure if Nick Abbott changed the riser on RT 2775 at Cobham I'll ask him.

Rob has had risers made as he says, but removing the old one is going to be very difficult, it's hard enough without he chassis in the way and overhead cranes on hand, not to mention refitting the new one, the main body bolts at the rear are fitted to it and these of course along with the platform bars and the battery riser, battery lid all need removing.

The battery riser is the panel between the platform riser and the staircase,it connects to the rear bar, it may be a problem in itself as it already had a diagonal patch plate over it that was used on Final overhauls to cover rusted battery risers.

You will have to find a a way of safely jacking the bus up high enough away from the chassis to drop the riser down, you will need heavy duty props, we used sawing type benches, to put under the floor bars by the gearbox in order to keep the rear safely raised.

As you probably know already the platform outer bars are a lash up If you go to the PRV site: http://www.prv.org.uk/ on left look for RT downloads, then under grouped drawings look for RT 005 A1 that is a drawing of the platform bars and their fixing to the riser and rear frame lower bar, there are other drawings there that might help you with other repairs.

If you need any more information feel free to E Mail me.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

Brian,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your input is invaluable. The information about prv.org.uk is also extremely useful.

We'll examine the front of the platform riser in more detail to make sure, but I think we can get away with not replacing it, just patching the rear face. The top edge of the rear face has already been cut away, no doubt to stem the corrosion.

Rob, I have a copy of the diagram from the prv site which should suffice. Many thanks as always.

I'm going to get a couple of railway sleepers to get her up on to get a better look underneath.

BTW, the battery riser shows hardly any signs of corrosion. I was surprised when I saw it; it may have been repaired at some time in the past but I would have expected to see signs of this and I couldn't. I'm not complaining!

Many many thanks.

Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Though I've not had the pleasure of tackling an RT riser yet, having spoken to a couple of other professional restorers, they reckon that an RT that needs the riser replacing is hardly worth keeping as it's such a big job to do.

However, it also depends on the condition of the rest of the bus, whether the body timber has been replaced, state of the metal body frame especially between decks etc. Don't let me put you off, it's your bus, good luck.

My bus number (if any): RML2532,GS67,MLL721,MLL738 and an RT.

Hi Roy,

It's a challenge, but not a lost cause.

It's sound advice though. Without sounding too negative, anyone contemplating buying an RT should be aware that they could end up with a bottomless pit for their wallet or the most expensive chunk of scrap metal. Even an expert would be challenged to determine the viability of an affordable restoration without seeing under the skin. The RTs can have a knack of being deceptive.

To some extent I think I was lucky. My bus looks bad but is not actually as bad as its' appearance, with the exception of the roof which is pretty shot. Time will tell as we crack on with the hard work, but having removed some panels and replaced them again, we are feeling confident about succeeding.

Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

You might be able to get away with plating the riser. Because of the work involved in replacing them, we welded and plated as many as we could.Most of the plating and welding was done on the front facing side, you might need to drop the bottom of the wheel arches that hold the mud flaps. The important areas are around the body mounting bolts and the two brackets on the footstools.

We did try doing a non-dismount riser change at Aldenham once, it was similar to yours the O/S part around the battery riser was sound.

The idea was to jack it up and replace it in two operations, leaving the O/S third in place. First cutting out the rotten N/S section then replace it, then the centre, then weld the pieces together, the replacement pieces were to be sections of a new riser cut diagonally, not vertically.

It was not completed as a poorly positioned jack collapsed and nearly turned the bus over! Nevertheless the idea was good and you might be able to do something similar, if you have the services of a good welder.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

Good luck on your project. Keep us informed how you're going.

My bus number (if any): RML2532,GS67,MLL721,MLL738 and an RT.

From what I can see your riser looks repairable, I know Davies bus at Lincoln was much worse.As far as I understand it he supported the body on blocks and removed the nearside framing and slid the new riser in from the side.It would certainly be worth contacting him for tips.He got a local engineering firm to make up the riser for him and I think I recall him saying it cost about £450 but I could be wrong

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Just clarify this, you can't slide it in from the side, old one has to be dropped down and new one put in from below. You could slide it in were it not for the brackets at the top that go either side of the footstools. If you do it pieces and weld it back together, that might work!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

Like I said it would be worth contacting Dave about how he did it.All I know is that the new riser went in in one piece and they didn't have the facilities or height clearance to lift the body far, merely to support it enough to allow the riser to be fitted.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

So today I got her up on some railway sleepers and got a good look underneath. The riser is shot. It has been plated over and quite poorly done. It's becoming evident that there has been quite a bit of plating over corroded metal on her, rather than actually dealing with the corrosion. Of course the corrosion has continued and the plating has simply been masking it. I can now see that the platform area has dropped by about an inch as the riser has crumbled. The pillars either side of the riser are corroded and the riser is providing no support for the rear of the body at these points. All that it seems to be doing is supporting the last section of flooring in the lower saloon and there is just enough to provide support for the battery riser.

The question is, what to do next? I've removed lower panels around the rear of the platform and the first step of the staircase. I've moved everything that is moveable to the front of the bus to reduce the weight on the back. The rear window is already out.

I'm thinking that the back will be jacked up a bit to relieve the downward force and compensate for that inch, build a frame to brace and support the platform overhang and rear end of her.

I see the suggestion of having a riser made from scratch and sliding it in from the nearside. I'll follow up on that one and see if the company that made it can make another. Would an RSJ be an option, with additions welded on to support new side pillars, the battery riser and a new platform frame? Naturally the platform frame needs to have the slope that the original riser would have provided.

My bus number (if any): RT3316

This is really one for the RT register people, like David Thrower. A lot of RTs have had riser replacements and quite a lot off the road are because of this very failing and the sheer magnitude of the job as well as the expense.

It's facilities that make the difference.

It's about 25 years, maybe 30 since I last saw a riser replaced on an RT but it was a very rotten example. In fact the whole bus was rotten. It filled bins with rusty metal and rotten wood.

The decision was taken by the owner to try and lift the body off the bus. Given the riser is also the bit that retains integrity when lifted this was a huge risk and challenge.

Therefore the bus was completely stripped. all removable fittings, panels, the lot from mid bus to the rear. To reduce the weight to a minimum. All the glass etc. It was almost a skeleton

Of course this revealed even more rot but that was not such a bad thing as it was going to have to be dealt with in any case.

A chap from a bodyshop made up a series of braces which were bolted and tack welded to the body.
He took several datum points with the bus parked on level ground.

Two fork lifts were used to lift the body but from a sort of cradle that they fabricated. It no doubt helped that the owner owned a steel fabricators.

The chassis was in spectacular condition compared to the body. It had a steam clean and a epoxy coat repaint.
But the body repairs took years. The riser was replaced but as far as I know, the bus has still yet to turn a wheel.
The initial enthusiasm of it's then owner ( now passed away) and the cost having waned a bit.

Hi Steve. Have a look here http://www.lvvs.org.uk/old714.htm There is the name of the company who made the riser and some photos.

The platform riser doesn’t support the body sides,it just fixes to them,the rear partitions either side are separate units and if you look inside you will see a steel box like structure in the corner by the platform window. Under normal circumstances the body is still quite solid without the riser in place. The platform riser only supports the platform, but is a main body mounting point.

The ideal solution to doing this properly is to lift the rear of the bus up to provide enough clearance to get the old riser out and put the new one in, replacing the pillar sections while you have access to them. At Aldenham we had overhead cranes to lift the rear and the lifting points i.e. the rear partitions + riser were relatively solid!

Those who did RT 4494 don’t show us if they jacked up the bus, but I can’t see any other way of doing it, you have to get if off the chassis to move it. You need to lift the body at least the depth of the riser. You could try jacking up using the old riser and packing it as you go under the rear frame bar AND the floor bar at the front of the footstools. you will need to release the body mounting T bolts and any chassis connections, cables etc to allow the body to lift off the chassis.

If you put anything in other than a riser you will not get the platform coving back, an RSJ is out of the question, however, you don’t have to fit the original design platform bars back, you can put what you like provided they are not too heavy, you could use metal ones if you want and aluminium sheet covering, depends on what look you want and how much of the original design you want to keep.

I don’t know who is doing this with you, but why not ask Dave Simmons to come and have a look at it?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

To fit an rsj would make the backend too rigid, don't forget there is a certain amount of flex in the chassis and frame as the bus is driven along the road.Making it too rigid could lead to stress fractures in the chassis an or body frame.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Ian Barrett formerly of Cobham has done a couple of RT risers in the "recent" past. If you can contact him he might be able to add to what Brian says.

The RT I'm working on is certainly rotten, though the riser seems ok. I know of one RT that has the top sides held in place by the seat frames. It has a very nice, expensive, paint job.

My bus number (if any): RML2532,GS67,MLL721,MLL738 and an RT.

Jack, David Thrower, nor Kelvin Platt has ever changed an RT riser, they will have to soon as the RTL they are working on (not RTL 1050) has no riser left, it has completely rotted away. I think RT 1320 has a similar problem.

I did riser changes at Aldenham, they were not easy even with the chassis not being there! But properly jacked up and supported at the No 3 floor bar ( one in front of the 3 seats and at the rear under the rear bar is all that is needed to lift it high enough to drop the riser out and insert the new one.

David and I were talking at Christmas about a way to do one with the chassis in place and the Lincoln one was mentioned, David said it was featured in a classic buses magazine, but how much detail is there I don't know.

Quite honestly taking off panels and glass is a waste of time, the bus needs jacking with the same jacks you'd use to jack up the whole bus to change a tyre, the rear of the body really isn't that heavy!

RE Cobham Nick Abbott did RT 2775, not sure if the riser was changed on that, I'll ask him.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

We have at least a couple of heavy duty jacks, but want to make sure that the back is properly supported. Steve, I got your email, thanks. I will contact A J Engineering tomorrow to make an enquiry there. I've taken on board the advice about an RSJ making it too rigid. The info about RT4494 was useful, but I won't personally be leaving my riser exposed.

It may not please everyone that I'm not specifically aiming to restore my RT to exact original specifications. I'm of the opinion of what is underneath the skin should be fit for purpose and practical. If modern capabilities mean that something can be done better or simpler and it doesn't have an adverse effect, then it may well be adopted. I have personal high standards but I'm not a purist.

But don't take that as a lack of gratitude for all the advice. I'm learning and I'm grateful for the assistance and pointers. I Was going to try Dave Simmons (and I will), but I know he is a very busy person, which is why he hasnt already seen the bus.

If anyone has contact details of people that they recommend that I should speak to, please do email me directly. I hope that I can offer advice to others in future in a similar fashion.

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Steve, the riser hasn't been left "exposed" on RT 4494, after it was in place they put back the coving panel and the castings and mouldings etc, if you use anything different to a correct sized riser, you will not be able to put back he coving on your bus. You can substitute different fixings instead if rivets, on an RLH riser change Ward Jones used a form of jo-bolt to secure the platform bars.

The rear frame of the bus is not supported by the platform bars, it has stress panels further up, all you need it for is to take some of the weight while you work on the riser. Good luck!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

I had written a bit more but it seems to have vanished.

Brian, Out of curiosity, what if the riser was fabricated from stainless steel?

Obviously a bit more expensive although industrial gauge S/S is now much cheaper than 10 years ago but the advantages of never having to be done again may outweigh the cost. Although zinc powder coating will increase the corrosion resistance hugely.

I'm not sure how the stresses run on RT risers but with the advantages of technology reinforced areas can be factored in.

Steve

I assume you have looked at the Utube videos of RT restoration at Tilsworth Works, some good images there of the riser repair. Dave Simmons is the right person to speak to.

You could do Jack, not sure of the cost, weight would be similar, but as you suggest modern powder coated rust proofing of steel would suffice,on both faces. There has been major advances in rust proofing and how it's done since 1948 when these risers were fitted, how many modern cars have floor pan and sills replaced these days?

Ed
I've not seen an RT riser replacement on Dave Simmons flickr site, not aware that he has ever done one, Dave shows the extensive repairs of a red RT around the cab area, can you provide a link please?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

Heard from Nick Abbott, Ian Barrett did change the riser on RT 2775. They appear to have lifted the body and also dropped the chassis (took off the wheels) to create a gap to get the riser out.
This photo shows the change in progress - https://flic.kr/p/4HTaNy

Riser doesn't look too bad actually!

Nick reminded me that all the body bolts were removed, including the front bulkhead ones,to enable the lift, some of the T bolts were were cut, as I supplied him with the replacements from one of our scrap RTs.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs

I followed up with the Lincoln RT and found that the rest of that bus was in really good condition, but whilst LT had overhauled the chassis late in it's service, the riser had not received any attention (perhaps it was a country bus at this stage and London Country decided what should and shouldn't be done?). The bus had also had a rear end shunt apparently which had damaged the risers. That's what I was told, but as secondhand information may not be entirely accurate. Their experience with A J Engineering was a good one.

I spoke to A J Engineering who remembered the job very well. They have their own drawings too, adapted from the originals. They're going to get me pricing for both the riser and battery riser and had learned lessons from the original that they say can reduce the price as labour can be reduced. They aim to make parts that are better than the originals using laser cutting, welding the pieces together and galvanising / coating both sides (inside and out) to ensure that the part(s) never need replacing again and will hopefully outlive the rest of the bus.

The owner of the company is off for a weeks' holiday, so there will be a delay in getting pricing back.

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Brian

I thought Dave Simmons was from Tilsworth Works, I have got my wires crossed then.

Go to UTube and type in RT Restoration Tilsworth Works and they should come up. There are lots of images of RT restoration work.

Steve. The new design risers we fitted in the 60s didn't have the big holes, they aren't necessary, they were only for weight saving.

Nick Abbott thinks that Ian Bosher had a few made, might be worth talking to someone at the LBM.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1486 and several RTs