I've been told that the Routemaster's inability to provide wheelchair access was one of the reasons it was replaced. I'm wondering if anyone attempted to tackle this problem?

Does a lift exist perhaps that could allow for a wheelchair to be safely brought on board, and secured to the boarding platform, perhaps? Is there such a thing as a wheelchair securing unit, or is the fact that there is no wheelchair access something routemaster owners simply have to live with?

Rather than starting from scratch, I'm thinking this is the place to ask if a solution already exists

Do any of you have any experience with this; I'd be grateful for any info.

My bus number (if any): RCL2259

It's not a problem, it's a bus. There's another one behind. It was only the professionally offended that made such a fuss about it.

From personal experience on running days it is not a problem either if someone without full mobility wishes to have ride, there are enough willing hands to assist them to a seat.


From a practical point of view there are considerable problems with cutting holes in load bearing structures. If the desire is to give several wheelchair users a day out then a more suitable vehicle is required.

I would imagine a person with limited mobility would rather be able to wheel onto the bus. Newer busses have a little ramp that extends and drops to allow a wheelchair in. What I'm wondering is, has anyone adapted something like this for classic routemasters? If it already exists, that saves a lot of time designing it. Who knows, being a charity as we are, there might be funding available to install this sort of thing. For the record, it is not unusual for us to be asked if we can accommodate wheelchairs. Up to now, we have had to say no.

My bus number (if any): RCL2259

There is already an RM with wheelchair access
Link here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rw3-497alh/6233619895/in/photolist-auQW26-m4mgHE-5Bh8y3-aCQ4iN-CbBTeN-db9KUC-bVbXM4-jkma8e-dd1g7v-6TLZQE-61T3vt-f5jCoH-8mQae6-9edJPV-s9PQD4-7mTfLb-4FuHkf-f5jCPz-ezkk4v-e85Ufb-4UX2sm-9Wa65Z-8tuJW3-5rja9m-yYpdVy-cvgVes-bW7BWF-4r9MU8-nXgUeA-mGKwGu-bW7BYv-7jQCW6-5am8WA-3aHHAG-rnSGcL-6vGy9t-7mPnhn-8mQ9ok-b8T1uZ-bvcofz-r48KJK-5AFN12-pLJpPo-7j3331-5xd15j-ozegSP-b8SZ2V-7jQyRV-4r9MUX-rDpXSe

Or go on Flickr and search RM 450 :)

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1485 and several RTs

I would think that you would be told that you should have thought about that sort of thing at an earlier stage and acquired a more suitable vehicle. Quite frankly in this instance and for the above reason I view this idea as a misuse of taxpayers' money.

I can't remember how many an RCL seats, but if a lift is installed and space made for X number of wheelchairs to be secured, then just like the council car parking bays, the result will be 2X plus number of other passengers denied the opportunity to travel. Maybe the right degree of spin can be put upon that negative to convince; I fear that these days the answers is probably, yes.

London Coaches aka Original Sightseeing cut a hole in bay 1 of an RM to take a wheelchair lift; this may be the bus Brian is referring to, so yes, it's already been done. This will, as roy says, structurally weaken the bus unless done properly. If I remember correctly, thought the OST bus was properly done as they thought, it did later give problems with body stresses.

To secure a wheelchair on the open platform is crass stupidity, exposing the rider to all the dust, cold wind etc and being an obstruction to others wishing to board and alight.

Maybe an RMA or Northern RM would be more suitable as their bay 1 is already structurally modified to take the front door.

when I operated a route from Hythe to Ashford a few years back, a chap in a wheelchair rolled up and asked if he could have a ride. "Yes" we said, "providing you can get on". He banged the wheelchair into the back platform, fell onto the platform, picked himself up and managed to get into the saloon. We folded the wheelchair, put in on an upturned double seat and away we went. But, as with baby buggies at weddings, the wheelchair user then took up 3 seats.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Where do you get the idea that this is taxpayers money? We are not funded from tax money, and we do not seek donations from the public.

As for thinking in advance, we won the bus in a nationwide competition awarding us as the group which could make best use of it.

My question here is to continue helping towards that goal. To see how viable something is, you need to ask. I doubt that anyone in their right mind would fault us for enquiring on how wheelchair users could be catered for. There are however organizations who focus on special needs, who would see this as worthwhile and far from wasteful. That one person per journey this would help is important to us and them.

For example, we have an organization which cares for special needs children, that we provide space for in our HQ once a week. They are called Centre 404. They are the ones who have enquired about wheelchair access to the bus.

I'll look at the solutions suggested above. I am grateful for all the comments, and also realize that the incentive here may be different than for a special occasions bus. Carrying people onto the bus is not a real option and is wrath with insurance problems, but if a lift allowed for at least one wheelchair, that could make a real difference to the person concerned. It is hard to imagine the difference this might as make as most of us take our legs for granted.

My bus number (if any): RCL2259

In addition to RM 450 that Brian mentioned, RM 307 was also converted at the same time (1988) for the London Sightseeing Tour by a firm that I`m sure no longer exists - or at least in the form it was then.

If you look at the excellent Ian`s Bus Stop web site and scroll down to those bus numbers you`ll find the info. RM 307 is no longer in the UK but RM 450 is - with Timebus at St.Albans. It appears on their web site as being a bus for `static hire` only. The photo`s of it show the nearside conversion but why the bus does not / cannot operate with wheelchair facility now is something they may be able to tell you.

Seems strange with common knowledge that these two buses were wheelchair adapted and used as such, why have no others been done? Is it related to the structural integrity of the bus being compromised or has certification criteria changed in respect of retro-fitting?

I think Robert, you have to look simply at this and apply common sense.

Of course it is good to ask, but really, the answer is a simple pragmatic one which you should by now be familiar with from your time and experience now gained with this type of vehicle and it's design, purpose and construction.

The technical issues will go into the realms of serious reengineering and unjustifiable costs whilst at the same time devalue what has become a classic/heritage vehicle.

It is utterly insane to even consider placing a wheelchair user or even just the wheelchair on the rear platform. Hugely dangerous and that should not even need saying.

Bear in mind too, that some motorised wheelchairs are very heavy. The annual cost to London Bus operators from damage to bus lifts, structural and flooring from overweight wheelchairs and occupants is huge and way beyond viability. It is offset by huge GLA taxpayer funded subsidy which ironically has led to economies in seat comfort for all other passengers.

Doors or not, as with an RMC or RCL it is not a safe place to be for a journey. Nor is it particularly comfortable.

It compromises other passengers safety and in particular if an evacuation is required. Both exits will be blocked.

If as you have mentioned before, you intend to transport people who have a range of issues then you have to consider their safety and accessibility as paramount.

It will only take one incident report and VOSA and insurers will be spearheading an onslaught of paperwork and investigations.

It may well be that you do have the wrong kind of vehicle for your previously declared purpose. That's a shame, but does not say much for the evaluation skills of those who awarded the proposal.

As long as you can meet the safety, accept the restrictions and limitations, and still give people a good safe day out, then I wish you well.

A heritage vehicle - any heritage vehicle, which is intended for regular use to give days out for elderly citizens, no matter how desirable, has to be a lot safer than it was in its day.

That certainly can be achieved and done retaining the visual and aesthestic qualities. `Through good engineering.

When it comes to citizens with varying disabilities, this needs to be redoubled, which is why there are a handful of specialist operators to cater for that precise level of circumstances.

Maybe you should drop one of those operators a line as they can go through the requirements for such safe operation with a high degree of valid knowledge. It could be very helpful and prudent.

Chalfont Coaches have been in this field for well over 40 years. Try them.

Cheers Jack.

The desired purpose is already being met. Days out provided free for OAPs accomplish that. This is exploring what else is possible. We are asked if it is possible by charities with wheelchair clients, and we seek an answer. You make some very good points.

Thank you

My bus number (if any): RCL2259

I'll try and find out and keep you posted.

My bus number (if any): RCL2259

Robert,

As usual looking at something from a different point of view.

I'm not sure if the ceiling downstairs or the floor upstairs would be good enough to support this but given its a supporting floor maybe.



I have seen one of these fitted into a big american campervan at a campsite, where it had a bit that extended/folded out the door to pick the person up. It lift them on to the sofa inside, it also lead to the loo and the bedroom. I saw this when the person who was on his own at the time ask if i minded chucking his wheelchair in the under body compartment!

Could be another option instead of cutting bays open, especially if their special needs do not require a special seats.
(Given RMs don't/can't have seat beats then can't see how it would be able to have a special seats as seen on my local mobility minibuses doing the rounds)

Could even be made with detachable track so only fitted when required, i would imaging this wouldn't be beyond a design company that specialised in mobility that really wanted to help.

Maybe not suitable for a shuttle service but using the bus as a tour bus where the start and finish is the same place and the chair could be left behind then could be???

My bus number (if any): RMF2771 (RCN 701)

Can't see any reason why the near side first bay can't have an RMA type opening with a wheelchair lift fitted.

My bus number (if any): M1001, RML2276, T806

At random picked of the internet these are a specialist supplier of PSV wheelchair lifts.

http://www.passengerliftservices.co.uk/

From a brief look, there and elsewhere, to accommodate virtually any motorised wheelchair a lift of approximately 500Kg capacity is required. With the weight of the lift itself there will be a potential 3/4 tonne to be supported from the side of the stuctural bodywork which has already been weakened by cutting a hole in it. Once inside the vehicle, unlike the citybus with one space reversed against a fixed bulkhead, several chairs of probably different dimensions, and their occupants have to be secured in free space to approved standards.

The installation automatically becomes subject to Loler, which will add to regular expenditure on top of that for the assumed regular vehicle preventive maintenance safety inspections which one would assume a vehicle undertaking this type of work would be receiving, even though not legally required so to do.

A further consideration would be the expense and difficulties encountered should the 50 year old vehicle break down and require recovery. Just how easy is it to conjure up not one, but several suitably wheelchair capable vehicles at 14hrs on a bank holiday afternoon for a busload of passengers, some of whom may have critical time dependent medical needs. I can see it now on the local evening TV news: " The M25 was closed this afternoon clockwise while the elderly and disabled passengers were evacuated from a 50 year old routmaster bus which had broken down after the driver lost all gears. A spokesman for Arriva/Stagecoach/Firstbus confirmed that they had been contacted by Police at 14.40 to request attendance, by calling upon the services of office staff to find drivers they had sent four vehicles to the scene which was some 25 miles from their nearest garage. The spokesman added that they were very proud of their staff who had assisted the Fire brigade and Ambulance service in the evacuation. The bus is operated by....." Fantasy? I hope so.

I am very pleased with the responses here and thank you all. There is much to consider.

I should say, it is not our intention to fill our bus with wheelchair users. The ability to provide a safe space for one to travel would be good. Not all our clients, with special needs, use wheelchairs.

Also worth considering that in our case we do have proper country doors, which might make a difference.

My bus number (if any): RCL2259

Two very different issues here, but in a nutshell...

1. Can you make an RM accessible to wheelchairs for private hires, sightseeing and the like. Yes as has already been shown and discussed.

2. Can you make an RM DDA compliant. Probably but at a massive cost. DDA lift as per a Nat Ex coach, wheel chair area, back boards, pull test, wireless bells, bus stopping signs, new stanchions and grab rails... No change from £20k, for a reduced downstairs capacity and loss of much of the original interior which is often the reason people want to use one.

Steve