ROOF

Thank you for visiting the Routemaster Owner and Operator's Forum (ROOF). Please feel free to use this forum for the mature discussion of any issues of interest and relevance to Routemaster owners. Please do not use this board to publicise your feelings about individuals, National or Local Government or TFL policy. Owners of other London bus types in service during the 1950s, 60s and 70s are also welcome to contribute to this forum.

Please note, the ROOF website no longer exists. The link from the Forum does not work anymore.  Useful information and links from the website has been posted to the Forum.

Please do not respond to abusive posts but notify ROOFmoderator 1@outlook.com.


ROOF
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Not happy

Some of us on here do restoration and repairs for a living, we tend to give quite a bit of our free time offering help and advice in the hope that one day some custom will come our way. We've already had a discussion on our sources of supply not being revealed, much for this reason.

What seems to be happening now is that some of us are supplying reconditioned and sometimes new parts to customers who then fit them and find they are not required, or fail to return old units when it is quite clear that the old units are required. I've recently "lost" a couple of sets of accumulators, wheel cylinders, and more recently am awaiting the return of a gearbox and an electrical control unit.

If a new or recon unit is supplied in good faith then the supplier will expect payment for the said item, it is all covered by the Sale of Goods Act; if the new or recon unit is defective, then that is also covered by the same Act. Some people now are expecting to be supplied with units to "try out" and then send back many months later 'because that didn't solve the problem". The problem the supplier then has is: has the bus the new unit was tested on passed the fault on to the new unit? Can the supplier then re-sell the recon unit as an unused recon unit? The answer is no.

There is also the warranty problem. Most recon firms give a limited warranty on such items, 3 months, 6 months, maybe a year from the date of fitting. so, the unit goes to someone in April, doesn't get put on the bus until June, then, months later, the customer says oh that didn't solve the problem I don't want it! The warranty has then expired, the supplier is expected to make a full refund and then has to get the part checked out at his own cost to make sure there's no fault with it. but then it can't be re-sold as a reconditioned unit!

A few years back I sold someone a set of pistons and rings, probably around 2008. I heard nothing from him until about 2011 when he sent the pistons and rings back to me and expected a full refund because they were the wrong size, despite being marked as the size he ordered. Had he told me immediately or soon after, say within 3 months, he would have had a case, but case law was against him and he didn't get a penny back. As it was a cash deal he didn't have an invoice, didn't want one, and I couldn't remember how much he paid for them in the first place.

Another scenario is "my bus has broken down, can you supply " which then happens, sometimes trusting the person to pay and they then take months to pay. Please people, those of us who supply the parts usually have to pay up front for these bits, or we've had to pay storage for the bits for many years, it's only fair that we don't get messed around.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Not happy

It looks like these actions are going to precipitate the immediate adoption of the policy practiced by the manufacturers. A substantial advance surcharge deposit to ensure the return of an old unit, the return of the deposit to be conditional upon the old unit being fit for reconditioning and the supply of electrical, fuel and hydraulic components being non returnable unless any seals or protective wrapping are intact.

Nothing is lent for suck it and see merchants.

Re: Not happy

Given how easy online payments are nowadays, there is no reason to supply before money is received and I will not do that now except for customers with proven track records. I am also very poor at following up for payment, especially when they are comparatively small amounts. As such one bus customer will probably never pay me as he isn't currently allowed to use a chequebook and by the time he is, I would imagine it will be a little too late. Another I have just got round to invoicing some 3 ½ years after sending the component! My fault in those instances but that will not happen in the future.

I haven't tried to make a living out of the bus industry for quite some years as few are willing to pay what I want to diagnose and repair faults. As I have said before, some will pay thousands to paint their baby but not to keep her safe. I therefore see no reason why I should supply on a return if not needed basis, components to be fitted as a method of an unskilled person's diagnostic procedure. If the person cannot work out what the problem is they either pay for more parts than are needed (and possibly destroy them in the process) or pay me to sort it. Some LT electricians worked that way. Change everything and it should work. I often wonder how they got on once LT’s bus side was sold off. I am not against people wanting to learn how to do things and good luck to them if they can work it all out. I do that myself and have learned lots in the 12 years of having by bus. I would never ask, however, for someone to send me something and then return it as it wasn’t the cause of the problem.

Or as the other Roy has quite rightly said, nothing to be lent to suck it and see merchants

Anyway, I'm very surprised you or anyone else allow it Roy.

I am happy to give advice, when I have the time, either by phone, email or forum, but that is only because my income isn't affected and I offer no warranty on that advice. I appreciate the advice given to me over the years and I hope I have repaid that. I know you are less keen to hand over such assistance (although you have assisted me in the past) but that is understandable as it is your livelihood.

What annoys me more than anything Roy is the parts shortage scare mongering, hording of parts, and failure to join forces in sorting a solution. Maybe rather than holding back a source for a part, advertise oneself often and permanently as that source. I do not know what you can supply regularly or what you just happen to have or indeed may have but are not sure sitting on your shelf.

I have suggested a solution for a part that is long since unavailable (so I was continually told) and have even done a full write up of how to fit a modern replacement component, on here, the other now disused forum and the RMA magazine and yet I don’t think I have ever had a comment on its usefulness (apologies if someone has), how they followed the advice and got their bus back on the road or indeed that I am an idiot and there are in fact loads of the original components in circulation and such a solution was never necessary. In short, feedback for such endeavours may encourage me (or you) to find a solution for another problem.

Of course, in a utopian Routemaster enthusiasts world the above would be academic as we would all openly share sources and resources, club together to buy stock, assist with one and others rebuilds and all live happily ever after but that, as I found out a few years ago, will not happen whilever my exhaust pipe faces downwards!

My bus number (if any): M1001, RML2276, T806

Re: Not happy

One of the customers is one of those who came on here asking for advice and was given a lot of advice. Many months down the line when chasing for the old unit in return I am now faced with the "new" unit in return and his money back!

I've had problems with customers abroad, some of whom have been regulars taking an almighty amount of time to pay in full, and often trips abroad have amounted to several thousand £ of parts and my time and travel. Part-payment and wait a long time for the rest, which may lose me money because of the fluctuating exchange rate. I now insist on my travel costs be paid and a cash amount up front before I go down the tunnel. Another "trick" from european customers is to "misread" the invoice, euros for £, and send the wrong amount as my invoices have both currencies at the rate at invoice date.

As I mentioned in another thread, there's some abroad who want vast amounts of parts just to keep on the shelf. It ain't gonna happen. Most think there's loads of RM parts on the shelf at a good price because they're under the misapprehension that there's still a lot of RMs in daily service and stuff can be picked up like getting a tin of beans from the supermarket.

A lot of time can be spent giving unwarranted advice, one potential customer in Germany amasses 35 emails asking for advice on his RT engine and gearbox; so far not a penny in order from him. I really don't have this sort of time to waste on people any more. Often advice is given and totally ignored until I get the panic call that "my bus has broken down" somewhere on an autobahn in the south of Germany and "can you come and fix it now" as though it's just round the corner, not 1000 miles away. I did once go to Munich to change a Plessey pump, half an hour's work with best part of 3 days travelling.

Other problems, people I supply and fit parts for, there's a warranty problem with the parts, bring the bus back to me and I'll change the part. By the time they do that the part is out of warranty. You really can't win.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Not happy

roythebus
One of the customers is one of those who came on here asking for advice and was given a lot of advice. Many months down the line when chasing for the old unit in return I am now faced with the "new" unit in return and his money back!


More likely it is in fact the OLD unit that has been returned and this ******* is trying to con you. I would be treating it as such.

Re: Not happy

It seems to be a sign of the times.

I have always been happy to help. If not so much in physical application these days, certainly in advice and opinion.

But hardly a soul bothers to offer so much as a courtesy "thank you".

Just on this forum alone, reading back, there are a few who beg advice and help, and a few who have such dangerous fantasies that to ignore them would be in my view complicit to the potential tragedy being proposed.

The response is either to ignore the advice or simply not respond.

Not so long ago, there would be a bottle of something arrive at the door or workshop and there are those who never forget a favour and either return it os simply show gratitude in whatever way.

I can accept the naivety and whims of a few enthusiastic souls. That's fine, Everyone has to start somewhere.
But as I get older I cannot accept ignorant arrogance. I don't recall it being a common thing when I was younger amongst my peer group or those senior or junior to me. Gobby, Lippy, surly Yes. But usually socially and not when it came to the job.

But currently it seems to be a cultural wave,

Thankfully, There are exceptions and that is evident even on this forum. But some need to stop and think a little.

JFK had a saying. It might have been about one's native country but the same principle is equally valid to individuals.
.

Re: Not happy

It seems the gentleman who caused my anger in the original post will be fighting to the end. County court here we come. Meanwhile anyone wanting an exchange bit of electrical control equipment, there isn't one on the shelf any more. Sorry.

My bus number (if any): RML2532