We are all aware of the RT's problems with an ageing wood frame. I noticed that on my RT a couple of top deck seat poles seem to be flexing at the top, and a couple of securing screws do not tighten but just turn with a screwdriver. I take it that these poles screw into the wooden roof cross frames above the board ceiling. Am I correct, and does this pole flexing indicate frame rot here?

Can't you use your real name please ? At least in your entry. Or at least a normal name.

Brian is more familiar with RTs although I suspect rot was not so common when regularly overhauled in service days

Unfortunately the combination of steel frames, wood with damp and moisture ingress from lack of use and therefore no flow of air to dry out, causes preserved RTs to rot at a shockingly fast rate. I know of one that was completely stripped and rebuilt just 23 years ago that is turning out to be a complete box of rust and rot. That was with a lot of care taken to try and preserve the superstructure. But the now late owner wanted it LT style inside and out which has not lasted.

That's the biggest difference between the RT and RM. The RM Body is far easier to preserve and maintain with just a handful of weak areas. The RT body is a continuous care program.

Whereas Mechanically, the RT is easier than the RM to look after and can be a delight to work on. Most of the few RTs I worked on that were still in service or trainers, looked a little down at heel, they were so robust that they did not need serious attention very often, so got neglected on the TLC front. A shame really as they were a very, very good service bus and look splendid when looked after even with a bit of a patina. I don't know a colleague who did not regret the day they were replaced - even by RMs. Although RMs were welcomed if the alternatives were SM or DM types.!

The easiest way is to get a joiner or a seasoned bodyworker to come along and show you a few techniques to find rot. This can be from small probes to careful tapping even by hand. It's not something that can be conveyed by word. Someone has to show you how and it's by ear, feel and sight. Good ones can tell woodworm from dry rot and wet rot and other nasties. Sometimes it's just a bit of flexing wear and a local repair or a larger screw or an old style wood rawlplug is all that needed.

Otherwise it's a case of removing a few panels.

On the outside you can check to see if the horizontal lines are straight and flat. Above and below the lower deck window lines and the cant rail and the upper deck lower.

The roof is harder as it will have the inevitable knocks and repairs so harder to gauge.

If it smells musty or damp on the top deck . The seats are damp then theres a problem. With RMs it's condensation and leaks that causes the seats to rot. But on RTs the wood draws the moisture so the seats fare better but the enclosed wood and steel does not.
Any bowing or warping of roof or side panels, Popping apart of window cappings and if the upper deck gives if you rock it, are also tests you can do before unscrewing areas to inspect.

When rebuilding, the best options are to get all the metalwork media blasted and powder coated with a zinc rich powder coating plus a mastic seal between the wood and metal mating faces. The wood needs to be the most seasoned and wood preserved and also primed and sealed. And using non flammable materials wherever possible

This goes way beyond what would have been LT practice but then the bus was a bus for X amount of years in service and was to be used daily. It's the standing around not being used that causes the damage deep within.

So factoring in the best of current technology to protect and preserve will make the cost of restoring a little higher but add decades on to the ability to keep the vehicle A1 and not have to do much more than a repaint and localised repairs.

It may not be authentic but unless you have a climate controlled garage to keep it in then prudence is more important for the long term. In any case none of it can be seen.

As far as I'm aware the seat poles are just slotted into the ceiling fixing cups and are not fastened to alow for the flexing of the roof as the bus bounces along the road.I often witnessed this happening with RT's and RM's service . I know my RM had rubber bushes in the cups to stop them rattling and a few had perished causing said rattle until I replaced them.

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Rubber cups were tried but tended to squeak and creak a little.

The best cure was a thin wrap of a textile webbing which grips the stanction and the holder with no rattles or squeaks.

The stuff was like the heavy duty version found on the front grille mounting plates and the battery cover but nearer 2mm thick, often a tight fit and pushed in with a little grease which also preserved the textile.

Lasts very well but eventually shrinks and breaks down which often leads to a rattle and nothing apparently there.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and several RTs

I've used plastic plugs, they tend to grip better, for handrail holes that have got too big over the years.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Thanks for your replies.

I had a traditional coach builder/repairer over to see the bus. He just walked around it, had a good look underneath each side feeling/poking the wooden structure, and on just that declared the whole bus fine! Just needs a new floor in the battery compartment he said. What about from the floor up I thought, (risers and so on).

I know from taking off lower access panels that there is some rot in the wood along the bottom, so he knew less than me I guess.

I have replaced the battery compartment floor with three quarter inch thick boards. There is no smell of damp in the inside of the bus yet...

John

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

not wishing to doubt your man's credentials, but I'd suggest you look around the bus. does any of the beading show signs of lifting out, especially between decks? Are there any pop rivets used to hold said beading on? these are signs that all is not well.

I looked at RT1954 in Belgium a couple of years ago where an elderly coach maker was busy riveting mid-deck panels back on. I suggested to the owner he may want to take a closer look as they should be screwed on to timber. He did, and found the panels being riveted on to the edges of the other panels. the was no timber to fix anything to! He's subsequently having to do a complete rebuild on the bus.

Depending where you are, I'd suggest getting a second opinion!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I was unconvinced by the guy who looked over my bus Roy, he barely looked up at the higher areas of beading and panels.

I have found screws missing and some ready to fall out at higher levels.

I am concerned by the board ceilings inside my bus - they bulge down in places between the screw cross sections, most notably on the upper deck. This suggests to me damp and wet behind them. Is this common on RTs, and I wonder it these ceiling panels warping will burst from the securing screws, and come down. I assume that these cross section screws go into wood, also getting damp?

John

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

I'd suggest, and I think Brian Watkinson and the other professional restorers on here would agree that unless your RT has had the timber replaced in the recent past, then it will need doing. you are looking at a lot of work and a lot of money, especially between the decks. An RT I have in at the moment was thought to be a "good 'un" but has taken a few years to get to grips with.

I asked where you are based in order that one of us who knows about these things could give a second opinion for minimum cost.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

As we all know the only way to check properly is to remove some test panels - but if the synopsis is as expected they certainly won't just go back on again as there will be nothing to fix to and as Roy says the bus will be off the road, possibly for some time, while all the timber is replaced.

My bus number (if any): RML2747

You may want to contact Steve Downing, he's doing a major restoration on RT3316.

RT3316

I'm also doing a major restoration on an RT at the moment, I can't remember what number it is! You're welcome to come and have a look to see what problems can be found. i'm near Ashford Kent.

I have to echo what Jack and a few others have pointed out.

I started a bit of work on an RT -some years ago now.

All it was was loose beading on the side panel and over the cab.

One day later and I had dismantled all the cab and half the from nearside up to the upper deck windows. And more and more this weathered but sound looking bus was disintegrating in my hands!

The bus looked quite solid but in a matter of hours I had buckets of rotten wood and rust and virtually nothing to stick it back together again.

Fortunately, there was a skeleton bus in the same yard and in far better condition and I salvaged some of the superstructure, enough to bolt it back together and reattach the upper deck to the lower. Using a scaffold pole, blocks of wood a trolley jack and some rope!

I'm afraid that that was the limit of my resources and that all the wood needed replacing, the corroding steel required media blasting and powder coating or re-fabricating,

Having rebuilt a an accident damaged RM front end the previous year -( not quite finished as someone made off with the offside front side panel! ) I was buoyed up to tackle the RT thinking it would be a few weeks work.
How wrong I was. It won.

Not entirely down to defeat on my part, the costs and sourcing the materials along with safe space to work were not forthcoming and much of it was a two man job and you both have to know what you are doing.

Another RT in the yard at the time looked perfectly good, but after that basket case, it was a lot easier to spot the tell tale signs without taking it apart.
I understand that the new owner of that bus has already found out ! But did have a fair idea that it was likely to be such.

In the RT's defence, with basic resources and sound basic woodwork and metalwork skills, or a good fabricator to hand, it is not too difficult to work on.Riser being the exception which does require a really good understanding of it's construction and fitting. But in general, easier than some classic cars.

What would be good is for a few museums to have a skeleton or part assembled body to go with a chassis to use as a point of reference. A bit like the cut away steam loco in the NRM. Makes it easier for the next generation to comprehend and see. Especially as now overhaul works and such are a thing of distant memory.

The mechanics and are generally easier than an RM, fairly easy to comprehend, But the RM bodywork is a dream by comparison.

Quite. The RT in my shed has been with me about 4 years waiting for me to pluck up courage to get it finished! The customer's other RT is still in service. Quite how it stays together is a mystery!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Thanks everyone.

I have found some photos showing frame work done in sections as needed over a 30 year period on my RT by the previous owner, who owned the bus right since LT withdrawal in the 1970s! Over the years the bus has had much of the wooden frame replaced as it became necessary. For example, in the 1990's the rear platform was rebuilt after total collapse of the floor. The owners repaired the wooden frame as needed when sections came apart. In the 2000's the lower deck ceiling was strengthened. The photographs show much of the wood seems to have been replaced over the 25 years. So some wood is newer than others.

I do not want to panick into having a body rebuild. I want to enjoy the bus next year, and I won't if it is off the road stripped down. I guess I am taking my chances, but I have the bus for enjoyment, and getting older restricts future chance of enjoying it in later years.

A rebuild will come to the bus eventually, as it does for all RTs, even those fully rebuilt!

John

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

No one seems to be mentioning the bus number,if its RT935, then believe me it needs the works.
If its a different bus then let us know the number,as we may have more information on it.
Rob

My bus number (if any): Rm2059

I've mentioned again and again the importance of putting safety first and whilst this primarily applies to ensuring the vehicle is safe to drive and stop on the public highway, The last thing you want is it coming to calamity if the structure is hiding a host of fatigue and decay. Really disheartening, But these buses were designed to be overhauled somewhat thoroughly, over a relatively short cycle and none of the components , though over engineered, were non-corrodible materials. It was not really something even considered at the time of the RT. It was making with what they had at affordable cost and many corrosion prevention methods had not even been invented let alone deployed.
Wood and steel along with a damp climate do not make good bedfellows. Even carefully restored examples have fallen foul of degeneration within 20 years of careful custody.

But look at it a different way. There is as much enjoyment to be had restoring and renovating a vehicle.

It can be tedious time consuming and a drain on resources. But a challenge and quite possible.
But the satisfaction of having done that and then being able to enjoy it out on the road knowing it is safe, sound and sure is the best bit.

Nothing worse than having uncertainty about something nibbling away at the back of your mind overtime you drive it up the road.

I hope it is good enough to do it bit by bit without a length stay off the road, and that the crucial bits are really sound enough to do so.

Merry Christmas to all

Jack

Ethough the timber has been replaced, that doesn't mean the surrounding steelwork is any good or even there any more. Belive me, the Rt in my shed had some timber replaced, but there was nothing holding the top deck onto the bottom deck on the offside! And very little holding up the offside lower floor, and the ends of the outriggers were rotten. As for the cab area, any slight shunt could have caused the body to collapse!

I think I have some photographs taken way back of some of the components that rust away and what they should look like.
If I find them I'll try and get someone to post them. I'm afraid despite my profession, posting pictures successfully on this site seems to be very hit or miss and rather time consuming.

Got to find the images first, as I'm not sure they were ever catalogued

The steel spars were going to be reproduced at PAG fabrications in Trumpers Way, Hanwell. They made one ( which was not cheap but as a sample and went to work out a production method to bring the cost down. I think it was going to be far cheaper to have a min run of 100 than a dozen but it was not pursued in the end.

But I vaguely recall that someone did have some crucial bits remanufactured to a common design, possibly David Thrower .

I would have thought Ensignbus and LB&T would have had most structural bits remanufactured somewhere the amount of RT restorations they have done between them ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747