So recently I have been refurbishing my winder bars, completely dismantling them to clean up. Including removing the Ali frames around the narrow glass for a deep clean and new rubber.

I'm coming near to putting them back in and 2 of my window pans have issues

#1 'Important one' the insert for the Window bar retaining screw 5/32*32 CSK has fallen out on one pan only.
#2 'No so important' the insert for the trim retaining screw has fallen out on a different pan .



Any one had this issue before and any solution with out removing the window pan?


My idea so far for the winder bar is the fit a metric 'rivnut/nutsert' in and fit a suitable head screw.
For the trim could do the same but but the screw head would be visibly different but I can live with that!?

Interested in your thoughts/ideas

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

So is that upper part of the window pan covered with a bit of tape or cut away? It does look like there's a lot of corrosion lurking behind the pan possibly on the superstructure. But it's not so easy to tell from just the picture but certainly looks like what we found many years ago on an ex LCBS RML which had a window smash. We just replaced the whole pan. Easy then, they were to hand.

Might be worth just removing the worst one and take a look. Very easy with the glass out There's been some real horrors on some RM types that did not go through Aldenham overhauls or were not as frequently overhauled. All generally repairable if got to in time.

It should be fully intact as the pans are integral to the structure of the bus absorbing the flexing in the frame and protecting the window glass from bursting. Easy enough to fix with a good ally welder and while at it you could fit new captive nuts.

Hi Jack

I should have said, someone years ago had packed out the winding gear with tons of greasy. The grease had now hardened solid in the teeth of the gears and around them causing the windows to skip teeth when closing, it was everywhere.
I had to chip of the worse then dissolve off the rest.

This is the reason why i was removing them all

That photo was taken after i chipped the worst off but before i wiped it clean with a penetrating fluid soaked rag.

The ali cleaned up nice showing the original red paint leaving a nice neat square hole. Its just the insert which is made of steel was was slightly corroded and came off stuck to a chuck of hard grease that was stuck to the end of the winder bar.

the little bit is currently sat on my desk
around the square hole in the photo what looks like ali corrosion is actually flakes of chrome that were pulled of the end of the bars by the dry grease!!!

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

The window pans must have been replaced or modified at some time as Northern General RM'S never had wind down windows only sliders

My bus number (if any): RML2551

Hi Steve, done by LT at aldenham in 1981, it got as far on overhaul as everything but repaint as the front windows were out when the union put a stop to the works, the front Windows were changed by Timothy Ashleigh's catering who brought it from LT shortly after.

LT also gave it a aec 690 engine

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

Hi Matt
That's very interesting as I hadn't realised that LT had got as far as overhauling any of the RM'S bought from NGT I thought they were all sold unused.I remember I worked at NGT overhaul works at Bensham at the time and LT were very keen to buy up any RM as they came out of service after a few were sold elsewhere.It did reach fever pitch at one stage, unheard of for withdrawn Northern buses!

My bus number (if any): RML2551

They started two but never finished, but they were never used in public service steve

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

Yes, Matt did mention the window mod on his bus in an earlier thread.

Funnily enough I'm currently doing the same job on our 2532. that too has lost a couple of inserts inside the frame. I'm going to get a box of rivnuts to poke into the holes and use raised csk metric screws. I really can't be arsed to demolish half the bus to replace these little bits. I note the front windows have square nuts held in with little clips while the side windows have like a butterfly nut which presumably rests against something inside the window pan.

You're welcome to some rivnuts when I get them. The RM screw holes are 4.5mm, so will take 4mm screws, but it depends whether the square holes in the pans will take the 6mm o/d rivnuts. If not, I'll have to bore out the window bars to take 6mm screws and larger rivnuts.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Glad we are on the same page with the rivnuts and thanks for the offer, but I already some and a pneumatic tool to insert them.
I got fed up of doing them by hand in a past freelance job, I have to admit it does make one of the coolest sounding noises of all my tools!

I just measured the insert across the flat edges and its 7mm so the 6mm won't do it unless using one with a large flange

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

Yes, that's why I mentioned the size! Is the tool like the one I use for avdel rivets? That makes a wonderful kerrrr-chunk sound. lol.

I found I had to scrape all the shite out of the toothed bits on the windows as well, a good soak in degreaser first helps loosen it. It seems to be a mixture of grease and dust. check the teeth on the bottom edbe of the windows, I've found several worn to excess. It is possible to carefully punch out the long rivets that hold them on the window frame and turn them round so the worn bit is at the top!

I've also un-siezed a few of the knobs on the winder handles, Use a gentle gas axe and ATX oil squirted in the gap, then put the knob in a vice and wiggle the handle back and forth. Time consuming but if you're going that far do the job properly! You've probably found you take the winders off by removing the screw, under that there's a spring, under that is a pin with a large flat head which bears down on a pointed bit which goes into the spindle! couldn't they make a simple thing any more complicated?

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Yeah it is a Avdel! :D

Luckily all my Knobs are free (think what you will)
Yeah i have had the complete bars apart for a good clean out with all new clean lubrication inside and luckily they all went back together correctly (I think)

The teeth on the windows are all fine on mine, probability because they only been on the bus since the 80s not the 50s!

I found a quick go over with the hot pressure washer on the cogs on the end of the bars and the teethed tracks took all the crap out.
I only used this method as i knew i was going to dismantle them completely to clean thus ensuring they were all dried out. I wouldn't recommend doing this if it wasn't going to be dismantled into component parts.


Yeah i have now down all 13 opening windows over the last 2 months with a few hours here and there around my job and other bus tasks but must say now all the glass is stacked up ready to go back in on Thursday i do feel good and they look good! (yes they have been tinted)


O and i broke a glass trying to remove the bar :(
Luckily it was a really badly scratched one so no real loss

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

So the chances of corrosion are almost nil as this would have been dealt with at Aldenham when the pans were changed. The NG ones were, I believe a little different for the sliders.

So that white area at the top is just the alloy and not what looks like a lump of foam.

You might find copper grease will fare better when reassembling as it does not dry out and go hard.
Or use the original correct lithium grease.

One of the problems with windows was the wrong grease being used which hardened and dried out over time, blocking the oilways.

A very thin smear of silicone grease or spray a couple of times a year on the rubbers and the upper seal will keep them supple and smooth the operation of the windows

Hi jack,

Yeah I used lithium grease, but not too keen on the silicon grease spray as if it get on the paint work it is near impossible to get rid of and will effect future repaints.
I find the tyre soap works the same if you rub it on using a cloth.

My bus number (if any): RMF2771

I managed to break 1 glass taking it out, that too was badly etched so no great loss!

My bus number (if any): RML2532