ROOF

Thank you for visiting the Routemaster Owner and Operator's Forum (ROOF). Please feel free to use this forum for the mature discussion of any issues of interest and relevance to Routemaster owners. Please do not use this board to publicise your feelings about individuals, National or Local Government or TFL policy. Owners of other London bus types in service during the 1950s, 60s and 70s are also welcome to contribute to this forum.

Please note, the ROOF website no longer exists. The link from the Forum does not work anymore.  Useful information and links from the website has been posted to the Forum.

Please do not respond to abusive posts but notify ROOFmoderator 1@outlook.com.


ROOF
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Are the dustbin lids on an RM's rear wheels the same as the RT ones?

Otherwise, does anyone offer RT ones, repro or otherwise?

My RT (like all I think), originally had semaphore turning signals. The boxes for these are still evident on each side of the bus. Are these obtainable at all? I still have them on my 65-year-old old VW Beetle which has bags of character added to by it's semaphores, so would love them on my RT.

Thanks,
John.

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Yes, RT and RM dustbin lids are the same, the mounting brackets are different, but its easy to make RT dustbin lid brackets.
I think you will be very lucky to find any semaphores, the only chance may be from an old commercial lorry.
I do have a couple of spare dustbin lids, or you can buy them from a company called Hydrjaws, you will find them on line.

Cheers
Rob

My bus number (if any): RM7

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/search?query=semaphore

12v though original Lucas stock may be of use ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Maybe someone will post a link, but I don't think I have ever seen a picture of an RT semaphore in use. I have seen pictures or maybe Pathe film of a trafficator arm on a bus, in which it appeared to be about a foot to 18" long and at just about the right height to wake up cyclists to the dangers of getting too close to heavy vehicles.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/huge-trafficator-semaphore-12v-NOS-bus-foden-aec-daimler-aed-morris-omnibus-/142284301368?nma=true&si=4jmMpV7fYqnFV5b5U5IjOiOjpW4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

One of the few LT buses I know fitted with semaphores is RFW14. These are 24 volt units which have been fitted since new. There are repeaters on the rear, 2 single arrows either side of the centre line which have been made to flash by using separate flasher units which energise when the switch is turned. there is no legal requirement for the rear repeaters to flash when semaphores are fitted.

I think the BEA 4RF4's were also fitted with semaphores but I've not seen any pictures of one with the arm out!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

RaTtletrap


My RT (like all I think), originally had semaphore turning signals. Are these obtainable at all? I still have them on my 65-year-old old VW Beetle which hThe boxes for these are still evident on each side of the bus.

Thanks,
John.

All RTs after the first roof box batches were fitted out for semaphore signals but only a tiny handful were ever fitted with them. They were a nuisance to cyclists and passers-by and fragile. They also rusted and were soon abandoned!
Why not stick with the flashing indicators that superseded them and actually work?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Have located a pair of dustbin lids, thank you all for the helpful information.

Regarding the semaphores, there is no doubt that they are a great novelty, especially on a London bus. My VW as said still has them, and they always raise a smile from passers by and those following the car. However, I do have a set of discreet flashing indicators fitted to use in main-stream road traffic, as a smash in the car's side would not be such a novelty. The flashing indicators operate on a separate switch for normal use. I don't like both types working together, it looks odd. On my RT I would connect the semaphores likewise and just use them at rallies or shows. Flashing indicators being essential nowadays would remain.

I have seen a good few vintage pictures of pre 1st overhaul RTs without the flashing indicators fitted (no ears at the front, no arrows at the back). It would be safe to presume that these buses would have been using semaphores as most other vehicles used them in those early post-war days. However, I have only seen two library photos of an RT with the semaphore signaling.

John

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Very, Very few RTs had semaphores as already mentioned and even fewer drivers ever used them.

They were lethal as they could decapitate a cyclist or pedestrian and were very easily damaged. And drivers were of course penalised on their driving record.

They were more prevalent on HGVs as they tended to be higher up.

Cars and Taxis it was different as they were far smaller but very often damaged.

It has to be remembered that almost all HGVs, Buses and coaches had a crew of two, conductor, guide or Vanboy and they assisted with many road movements that needed clear signalling to other road users.

But all drivers used hand signals and all other road users like cyclists did likewise and as it was part of road use etiquette, worked universally.

These giant semaphores would be a novelty on a bus if originally fitted certainly for shows and demonstrations, but in all other aspects, a liability, given the ignorance of mass road users of the 21st century.

Something I've long advocated is the use of LEDs particularly in rear lights and indicators for maximum visibility and reliability, hidden behind lenses, barely noticeable but greatly increasing the safety of a slow moving bus and the expectations of modern drivers. The latest LEDs now have a Kelvin temperature near to that of tungsten so have a warmer light.

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

RaTtletrap

I have seen a good few vintage pictures of pre 1st overhaul RTs without the flashing indicators fitted (no ears at the front, no arrows at the back). It would be safe to presume that these buses would have been using semaphores as most other vehicles used them in those early post-war days. However, I have only seen two library photos of an RT with the semaphore signalling.

John

Some facts John. Following a trial on a small number of red and Green buses, including Green Line RTs, all RTs were fitted with flashing indicators about 1959 at overhaul and at in garages. All RTs with semaphore casings fitted had a police light assembly with a two-way arrow incorporated above the lights, this was intended for use with the semaphore signals, but apart from a small handful, WAS NOT USED!.

The Roof box bodied RT3s didn't have the semaphore casings fitted and didn't have the arrows on the rear either.
When flashing indicators were fitted on these buses they had RM style rear flasher lens fitted.
All the other RTs used the two way arrow at the rear. After a couple of years or so the two way arrow was found to be confusing, and a N/S arrow was fitted adjacent to the N/S pillar and the L/H part of the 2-way arrow painted out! Only RTs, RFs and RTLs had this modification, the RTWs rears were never changed.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

One has to look at the requirements of the various Construction and Use Regulations. The double arrow on the backs of RTs etc is legal if it repeats a semaphore signal, it is not legal if it repeats flashing indicators. Repeaters for flashing indicators must be either side of the centre line.

Similarly one stop light is legal on pre-1968 buses, as is one tail light. If two are fitted they must both work. A single dip headlight as originally fitted to RTs etc is also still legal but only on class 6 buses. It is also NOT e legal requirement to drive around with headlights on in a 30mph zone.

It would appear the C&U regulations were amended in 1968 to take account of the last production "traditional" buses such as the Routemasters.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Hi John,

I have a brand new pair of old stock semaphore arms still in original boxes. They are 24 volt and I had considered doing the same thing with my RT, but doubt that I will ever get around to it. I have far more important things to focus on (enough to keep me busy for a very long time). They are for sale at £120 plus P&P (or in person from Watford or meet at various bus events in London area).

RT2775 has them fitted and I took a photo last Autumn. I don't know how to include images here, so will place a copy here:
http://rt3316.com/images/semaphore.jpg
The semaphore arms require the outer body trim to be made as can be seen in the photo. They are just arms with motors, wiring and mounting brackets

I read (I think that it was Jim Blacker's History of the RT bus) that the semaphore arms were used on a North London route (Barnet or Enfield - that area) for a few months due to some very sharp turns, including turns on hills.

Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

And now they're sold
Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Thanks for the picture Steve. My RT did indeed reside at Enfield garage for a while, so who knows it may have had semaphores. Shame yours have gone so quick - I'll keep looking though. To me semaphore indicators are the feature that make a car - or bus seem vintage - and the RM more modern with its new fangled winking indicators!

As said my ancient VW Beetle has working factory semaphores, and not having the winkers has never caused me a problem driving it - mostly raising a smile from people. My bicycle which I use most days has a large bus size semaphore for moving out and right turns. Works very well too, and I get many favourable comments from drivers - never any 'get out of the way' horn blowing that most cyclists get. So the semaphore signal is not yet consigned to the dustbin.

John

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Steve Downing
And now they're sold
Steve


I'm sorry, but that's bad business. I member raises the issue of semaphores, as far as I can see a subject not discussed here before, and it is plain that he is searching for a pair.

Bingo, he is lucky enough through his effort on this forum to be offered a set. In less than two hours of the post, probably before he has even seen the message, another member swoops in and takes them.

The reason this annoys me enough to make this post,is that I had a similar experience over an RM elsewhere onthe web. This also undermines the integrity of the ROOF website.

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

I think there is more shame on the Vulture than the vendor.

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Perhaps it would be fairer on this forum in future for the vendor with a known fixed selling price (rather than open to offers) to let the purchaser who has specifically requested the item have first refusal by private email before offering to all ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

To be honest I was a little annoyed but decided not to show that in my last post. However, as time has passed and I have thought about it more, I have to say that the person who swooped in and took an item that I have made the effort to obtain (an item that they had otherwise probably not considered, and had not advertised for) should have the decency to have the item offered back to me for first refusal.

I am sorry to be blunt about this, but us bus enthusiasts with presumably the same goal; preserving RT and RM buses we should have our ethics, or is greed and self-centredness the order of the day. Fairness is important among members.

I wonder what the purchaser would say in a shop if that were to happen to him there?

John.

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

As far I know this website is open to anyone to view or post which is fine and saves a lot of faffing around with passwords and Chtis having to waste a lot of time administrating it etc and has worked fine for years - the only downside is that any opportunist happening upon it can take advantage of anything offered for sale who may have no interest in buses whatsoever, just to turn a quick profit ?

My bus number (if any): RML2747

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

A response from the Vulture.

I was also after a set of semaphores for RF12, these were fitted from new to my bus, and I wished to reinstate them.

They were not bought for a quick profit but to complement my restoration project.

If Steve had sent a private email to John regarding the Semaphores, no problem, but the items were offered for sale on a public site, I saw Steve’s post and bought them.

Regards
Rob

My bus number (if any): RF12

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Steve Downing
And now they're sold
Steve


My message was brief as I was in a rush and wanted to be prompt regarding the status of the items.

John, I hope that you understand that one of the reasons that I agreed to sell these to Rob was due to the fact that he needs a pair to complete his project. I know that Rob is a serious preservationist and vintage vehicle restorer and therefore knew that he was not spinning a tale and planning on making a quick buck. Further to that, a Rob has helped me in the past for no personal gain, which added to his cause at a time where I did not even know if you would have wanted them at the price offered.

I personally would settle for being usurped if another preservationist needed an item above my own non-essential desire and have had to cross that bridge already. I hope that you are not too disappointed and that you have some luck in your search.

Steve

My bus number (if any): RT3316

Re: Dustbin lids and semaphore turning signals

Glad that Rob was the vulture and that the semaphores will be actually fitted to a very worthy vehicle and not just kept in a cupboard or sold on ! - I have seen these occasionally turn up in the small ads in the backs of magazines and on EBay - I wouldn't have thought there was much demand for them now especially the larger 24 volt ones I will keep my eye out for a another pair - as you say Rob they were offered openly to anyone not privately.

My bus number (if any): RML2747

Semaphore turning signals

I disagree with the response from Rob Duker.

It is clear that I started the thread, a thread clearly about Rattletrap's (my) desire to obtain semaphores for my RT bus. Steve made a post on my thread saying that he has a set for sale. The post is personal as Steve gives my name (John) at the start of his reply, and even gives method of collection for me.. This post made by Steve was not a general item for sale advert, else it would not have my name as it's salutation. His offer of a set for me was on my thread for less than two hours when Rob moved in on it. Had it had sat there unread for a week or so then it may be a little more excuseable as Steve may have needed to move the item on. Rob had not made a thread/post himself searching for such, and I very much doubt that he would have done, he just took advantage of my idea and effort to do so.

The only decent thing to do here is offer them back to the person (myself) who had used his initiative and made the effort to obtain semaphores for his own bus (not for somebody else's vehicle).

Rob, there really are no excuses, though I understand the situation the seller (Steve) was in feeling obliged, and he certainly should not have been placed in that position by you.

Please arrange the for semaphores to be made available to me, as you know they should be (and were).

John

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

Dustbin lids and semaphore signals

I am closing this thread now because the discussion has reached a natural conclusion with a range of differing views expressed. I thank all the contributors to this thread which started as a fascinating and informative discussion about the wheel trims and direction indicators fitted to early 1950s London buses.

There are risks in buying and selling on an open forum and indeed anywhere on the Internet. Occasionally this can lead to unhappiness and disappointment which is partly why I closed the ROOF Marketplace.

My bus number (if any): R