I had a message from a colleague last weekend who happens to be a vintage bus operator and a former magistrate who was out and about in Oxfordshire. He noticed an RML with a wedding party on board. There was no operators licence in the bus, no legal lettering on the sides, but a blind offering the bus for hire. Further enquiries revealed the bus wasn't even taxed. The police agreed and are showing an interest.

My own quick search shows the bus owned by someone and operated by someone else. And it is/was licenced as a PSV according to internet records. No names, no pack drill.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Hi Roy

This is huge interest to me.

I am Operating in Berkshire/Oxfordshire area and I have suspected that there is a rogue operator in this area, as someone has been putting out quotes stupidly low rates in recent months. Plus a bride to be who asked me for a quote, asked if I could match a £300 quote for a 4 hour wedding hire that she had been given, when I questioned her about who she was using, she would not let me know who it was but admitted that she was told by this bus owner not to pay him upfront but just to give them a donation at the end of the hire. There is no doubt someone in my area is operating a bus as a heritage owner with out the correct legal standing.

I would like to know who this person is, for one they are illegal, they are putting peoples safety and welfare at risk. Plus if they have an incident they will end up bring the whole world down on the legal operators with VOSA.

I would very much like to know who they are please if possible, I have had no luck in recent months tracking them down, any help would be apprecaited

Cheers Mitch

My bus number (if any): RMC1462

Hi all
I have not posted on here for a long time but this subject is a big problem for operators all over the country.

As some of you know we have 5 Routemasters and we also maintain many Routemasters for other operators including the RR fleet, Mitch's buses, private individuals etc and we all have the same problem.

There are a lot of Routemaster owners who hire out their buses for proms & weddings etc and they say if asked 'yes that was for my mate'.

We have lost a lot of work in the Swansea area over the past few years as there have been rogue operators hiring vintage buses including a RM. The buses have been running on heritage Tax and on class 5 MOT's and sometimes with no conductor.

If we did get a hire in Swansea often people would say we saw your Routemaster here last week doing a wedding or prom and in reality ours were nowhere near the place.

It costs a lot of money to hire out buses legally with £500 Tax / private hire insurance / public liability insurance / safety inspections and maintenance / class 6 MOT / Tacho / transport manager / CPC /and all the paper work that goes with it.

It drives me mad when I was doing a prom in Cheltenham and what do I see - an RML that I know is on a class 5 and heritage tax. Yes it could of been for a mate but the same bus has often been seen out doing proms and events so the owner must have a lot of friends, that's all I can say.

The one way this could be stopped is for non PSV registered buses to only carry no more than 8 people but then the honest people would suffer too.

A few rogue owners spoil it for everyone.


Martin

My bus number (if any): LB4H Fleet

An answer surely is to check if it has a disc in the window and if not then 999.

While you may not like the idea of ruining someone's big day this is the only way this sort of thing will stop.

The Police will be interested because without the required paperwork whatever insurance was in place will be invalid.

The best thing which could happen would be to see a few buses seized and cut up.

round our way in Kent there's been a 1952 Leyland coach operating for years with no O licence, free tax, no tacho etc. on a weekly basis. VOSA and the police have been informed numerous times by several heritage operators in the area. I even caught the bus red-handed one evening doing a wedding e had quoted for. The coach mysteriously "broke down" that evening and for a month or so afterwards.

I got a call from the Kent police officer who was their top traffic cop and he was ignorant of the law, especially about the tacho, his view being he didn't need one as he was within 50km of his operating centre, mistaking THE LAW which exempts vehicles used on a regular route of less than 50km from needing a tacho. I wouldn't say a wedding in a different place every weekend "for a mate" is a regular route.

The coach is still operating without a licence. It is more annoying as my business is suffering as a result of this.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

One would hope that the police would be discreet and allow the event to finish. Why should a bride's biggest day in her life be ruined. The hirer may well know nothing about the operator's illegality of use. The vehicle should be seized as soon as possible after the event has closed.




Again, why should the bus be destroyed, and taken away from giving future pleasure to others. The bus should be seized and sold by public auction. The proceeds then used by the police in their work of catching the morons that abuse priviledged affordable bus ownership, that we are very fortunate to have in the UK. Too much abuse from these people could see the government tighten up on bus ownership.

My bus number (if any): Rattletrap RT

I've often gone on about short cuts on safety and am no fan of all the red tape and beaurocracy that make doing things in an honest, proper and legal way so expensive as to barely make it viable.

So it is not really a surprise that corners are cut and a black market has created.

Seizing and cutting up a heritage vehicle is not going to do much except upset those who do conform and those who do look after a vehicle properly. It won't phase a hardened opportunist who will be back with another moneymaking scheme in another guise at some juncture.

Joe Public are no wiser to the ins and outs of private hire and the police and authorities are so focused on money and politically influenced policies that they won't be bothered much unless a really dangerous vehicle comes along.

But there within is a USP for all proper operators.

You can all prominently point out that you are fully insured, fully licensed, fully compliant and certificated service provider.

Then place the seed of doubt with the potential hirer without saying anymore. Let them take the risk.

If cowboys try to advertise the same then there's the evidence.

But if it persists then start naming and shaming. But be sure it is illegitimate, it could be a last min drafted in vehicle and is compliant but details may not be in the usual places.

Certainly agree that it would be better to sieze and sell, raising money to Police the problem, but also to allow the vehicle - (which is not the offender), to be used by a legitimate operator or preservationist.

And contrary to public perception, some bus preservationists do have friends and relatives and why not use the thing every now and then? I would for friends and relatives, not for financial gain, but for giving them a good day.

It is lack of insurance which really concerns the Police, they have the power to seize the vehicle immediately and they do just that. Absolutely correct as well. they have a duty to protect the rest of the public. They also do send such vehicles for scrap.

Yes there will be unscrupulous individuals who will just look for another money making scam. However they must have been pretty thick in the first place if they thought they were going to get rich quick hiring out an old bus for weddings, there are much more lucrative ways of fleecing the public.

It is the private chancers who see an opportunity to subsidise their hobby who are the real culprits. The two scenarios of the the wedding party left beside the road and the vehicle scrapped will soon get around the chattering classes. Hirers will hear about Samantha who was left in tears and rmember to ask pertinent questions. Owners will be heard at rallies mutttering in hushed tones about what a shame it was to see such a nice bus crushed... "and did you hear he had just spent £5000 on a respray, and I'm told that he had just had the moquette delivered."

Just because a few bus hairies might cry in their beer over what they see as the loss of 'an icon' is no reason to turn a blind eye.

All this isn't really helped when the police themselves aren't really interested. Many years ago, probably about 10 years, I quoted for a job from central London to Twickenham for the rugby. I didn't get the job. A few days before the job, Dean Sullivan phoned me to ask if I could drive his RM from central London to Twickenham. I was a bit peeved, being asked to drive a job I'd "lost", but hey ho, that's life, I drove his bus. He assured me he'd had this job on his books before the enquiry I'd had.

When I got to the venue in Soho, another rM turned up, rather scruffy, driven by someone equally scruffy. "Cor blimey mate, I've been up all night doing a night club run, before that a school job, now onto this one" said Mr.Scruffy. There was no o licence, no tax, no tacho. This was the operator who had taken what should have been my job. It was a recognised psv operator from the north Kent area who shall remain nameless. the same bus turned up on a school prom job in Sevenoaks a bit later in the year, still with no licence, tacho etc. taking a group of school leavers out and bringing them back late night with not even a conductor on board!

On another occasion, I quoted for a rail replacement job for the RHDR, Saturdays only for a couple of weeks. the Sunday job had been given to someone else. It turns out the someone else had a preserved RM, non-psv etc. I had to have words with the gM of the railway to put him right on what constitutes the carriage of passengers for hire and reward. I understand the owner had a warning letter from VOSA and he hasn't done it since. The other roy knows who he is.

As a rule police will not crush vehicles of a historic nature, but will quite happily confiscate them as they have done with several more modern coaches that have been operated illegally. However, illegal stretch limos make a nice sound when they enter the crusher. :)

My bus number (if any): RML2532

One would need to apply to the traffic commissioner, quoting extenuating circumstances, to seek dispensation to prevent the vehicle being scrapped.

So no operator's licence disc displayed and/or no legal writing displayed indicating who the operator might be equals illegal operation. This is a simple eyeball test which allows the Police Officer to hold the vehicle while PNC checks are carried out. Should these come back to indicate that the registered keeper does not hold an O licence, this then gives the Police powers to impound the vehicle immediately. If the vehicle does not have a calibrated tachograph fitted that is another offence. If the driver is not using the tachograph he will be invited for tea and biscuits with the traffic commissioner to plead his case why his vocational licence should not be suspended. During the course of investigations it is likely that enquiries will be made into how many hours of paid employment the driver has undertaken during the last 14 days.


https://www.gov.uk/roadside-vehicle-checks-for-commercial-drivers/driving-without-a-valid-operators-licence

The trouble is there roy, is that as we two know, VOSA don't have these illegals on their radar and tend to leave them alone. Drivers who don't have a vocational licence are not likely to be called before the TC because he (or she) has little or no jurisdiction over them.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I agree with you there about VOSA, it will be absolutely pointless trying to call them out,they simply will not attend. The Police will however providing that they suspect that the vehicle is uninsured for purpose. I don't dispute either that a driver without a vocational licence is of no interest to the TC; he will be however to the Police, as will a PCV licence holder to the TC in such circumstances.

While a legitimate operator can insure his vehicle for hire and reward work for one day at a time only, while excluding that cover for the rest of the year, anyone not entitled to undertake H&R may be able to do so as well but that cover would be invalid.

I am sure that given the time to reseach it, it would be possible to come up with the exact clause and subsection of whatever act is relevant to the offence. Being able to quote that over the phone to the Police should elicit a response more easily.

Jack Made two points .

I think he is right that there is an opportunity for proper business to capitalise sensibly on this.

The following is anecdotal, but recent and is from the horse's mouth !

At a crisis meeting of the local Allotment Association who had seen it's Trading Hut sales fall massively, it was revealed that a former member was selling compost substantially below the discounted bulk order cost price.

This meant compost sales had collapsed and without a bulk purchase, prices had to rise causing a further collapse.
This is a core product for the trading hut.

I asked a bit more and found that said seller was selling the compost in open bags.

Next question I asked was if all the Trading huts products were certificated and warrantied?

Yes, was the answer.

So I produced new posters advertising the Trading Hut prominently displaying that "All our Composts and Manures are fully Certificated and Safe for use on Public Allotments and Gardens."

Just 8 weeks later and sales have shot up by 178% and exceeded last years sales.

By sowing the seed of doubt amongst the customers and without pointing fingers at anyone, we have let them think about it and it has worked. People don't like to take risks especially if it might affect others.

The same could be said of Rogue operators, use them in the same way. Let the customer see what you are covered for and let them know what they should ask when getting quotes.

But also the operating of a hire business is too complicated and could do with simplifying without compromising all round safety and standards. Certainly the bodies that oversee should be able to award a quality standard in the same way the food standards agency does for Take Aways and restaurants.
And it is not right that VoSA can nit pick on a legitmate business but shy away from a rogue or chancer operation simply because they are off radar.

That way it could be a bit easier for really good vehicles in preservation to be hired in and operated using a simplified Class 6 and transferable digital Tacho. Thus giving an owner a chance to supplement the ever increasing cost of preservation (storage alone).

We are not far off autonomous HGVs, so surely this can be simplified without being costly or compromising safety?

What exactly is going to be left out of a simplified class 6 test?

How do you transfer a digital tachograph from one vehicle to another when it needs to be calibrated to a specific vehicle?

It is easy enough as it is to hire in another vehicle if the operator has sufficient margin on his O licnece and enough discs available. He just needs a Class 6 tested and taxed vehicle which has not claimed an exemption from tacho fitment and which is within tacho calibration dates etc.

He affixes one of his discs and a prominent notice that it is on hire to his company. He adds the registration number to the list of his insured vehicles, if that is what is required by his insurers and if he is wise he runs it through his workshop for a safety inspection. Everything to do with the driver and crew becomes the legal responsibility of the operator.

The owner would receive a vehicle hire fee, say £150 or whatever the going rate is and the operator keeps the rest of the PH revenue.

The idea is that the public are carried in a safe and proper manner; not that Fred is able to supplement the ever increasing costs of preservation.

If Fred wants to do that then he should apply for an Operator's licence.

I think what Mark means is that the UK and much of the EU are way behind on Tachograph and driver/vehicle recording technology.

There are now low cost devices surfacing that with minimal mods and at very low cost that can be transferred from vehicle to vehicle but automatically keeps the data of each vehicle and driver. The ones we have trialled at ND are very simple, require very basic installation, not the mass of sensors and wiring upheaval that is currently needed.

It can sense minute movements and knows when a vehicle is doing 41 kph in a 40 kph zone. Can sense braking force, pitch and roll, even bad road surfaces.

Each vehicle is fitted with a concealed and sealed data transponder and it logs in with the tacho only part of which is secured permanently to the vehicle. It locks with a code sent by the operating base so can't be removed.
Very clever and quite cheap. We've used it on New & older Trucks and even fork lift and Dock trucks so far. Another type is coming for evaluation soon.

The idea is that calibration will take place when the vehicle is tested and certificated. Or on a rolling road or road test. So each transponder only will be exactly for that vehicle. Correct me if I am wrong as my experience of this applies to vehicles less than 10 years old but there are exemptions for vehicles with no electronic sensors as OE. ?

It's useful for our reserve fleets and for those more specialised tractors that sometimes move from location to location but not so much for the everyday fleet.

But also many buses in preservation do have Tachos fitted and would easily pass a class 6. But it is not viable if only for handful of days per year.

I think that's what Mark is getting at. Being easy for a preserved vehicle to get a class 6 if needs be and it meets the criteria.

It is actually quite easy to get a class 6 test on a preserved bus, you just book it with your local authorised testing facility, ATF. Cost is about £180 though. However, on the pre-1960 buses as we know they are exempt from annual testing, regardless of use.

Even getting n operators licence isn't rocket science. You fill in the forms and apply to the traffic commissioner for your area. However, the expensive bits are having the required deposit per O disc, in the region of £7500 for the first and £4500 for subsequent licences. H&R insurance as roy says can be done on a daily basis, typically about £45 a day. The expensive bit is getting a transport manager! They usually want a vast fortune even if you only run the bus for 10-15 days a year.

I presume what you were getting at regarding tachos is the use of the various telematics/tracking devices that are now available. do they actually record who is driving at a particular time? I recently bought a couple of new/recon tacho heads for a sensible price, but then it cost over £180 to get them tested before fitting them! It certainly is expensive doing things right, so it's understandable why some choose to break the law.

This is ok until something goes wrong, which one day sooner or later it will happen. Remember not so long ago an RM loaded with passengers came off the road in Ulster. there was a lot of discussion hoping it wasn't caused by a vehicle fault such as brake or steering failure. It was caused by something running out in front of the bus and the driver swerving or something along those lines, so we all breathed a sigh of relief.

Another pre-requisite of getting a class 6 test on your bus is that it requires a Certificate of Initial Fitness (COIF). This is also expensive if your bus wasn't in service on the day the COIF scheme came into force, some time in the early 1980s. Roger Stagg at the London Bus Museum is currently in negotiations with VOSA to clarify this position regarding buses that weren't in service on that date as there does not appear to be anything in statute law that allowed the tens of thousands that were in service on that date to automatically be issued with one. I await the outcome of those discussions, but that is a separate subject, and it is one that I outlined on the FB RT Appreciation group a couple of months ago.

Back to the OP, on my business website I clearly state that the company is a properly licenced operator and give the link to the VOSA Operator Search website which will confirm that; there is also our membership number for the Confederation of Passenger Transport (the bus industry trade body). When anyone asks me if I can beat Fred's price I tell them to ask Fred for his PK number (that is the number of his operator licence number if he's in the south east). If he can't give you one, he is operating illegally and no I can't beat his price.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I too have had experiences of a preserved Routemaster operating in my area but I did find out who the owner was and the number of the bus so I made contact and threatened to report him - unfortunately this has not stopped him.

Personally I welcome any competition providing we are all playing on a level playing field - those operating illegally are not fair competition.

I have a very good friend who is a police sergeant working for Cheshire Police traffic division and he has told me that they generally do not get involved in stopping such vehicles as they cannot tell what type of insurance or tax a vehicle has with their ANPR equipment. Apparently all this does is check if the vehicle is taxed and insured, it doesn't give them specific details of what type of insurance or tax a vehicle has, so the chances of an illegal operator getting pulled by the Police is very slim.

VOSA did have an on-line form to fill in where you could report rogue operators, but since they merged and became DVSA this facility seems to have been removed from their new website.

My friendly Police Officer has now put a mark on the vehicle in question so the next time its picked up by a Police ANPR camera it will get stopped, hopefully this will happen when it's full of passengers going to a Wedding!!

So my advice to fellow operators is find out the bus registration number, phone the non-emergency Police number on 101 and ask to talk to your local traffic division and report them.

David

My bus number (if any): RM's 446, 548, 765 and 1783

The way it should be done. Presumably historics are then auctioned off?

The times I have been approached when out with my RT or RM and asked if I'd do a wedding or party. Of course I decline, but then have to spend the next 10 minutes explaining why I cannot do it. Easy to see why some unscrupulous private owners just 'go for it'.

Can the police also stop the idiot cyclists who ride on the footpath and are a danger to pedestrians? I'd imagine a pile of bikes going through the crusher would sound good too.

John.

My bus number (if any): RaTtletrap RT

I haven't hears of any historic buses being seized yet, but I know of a few where the owners have had the VOSA warning letters.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

'Proceeds of Crime auction' is what they are called, you can get some great bargins at them if you are looking for a sporty car or high end goods!

But the seizing authority have to apply to a court to sell the goods at Proceeds of Crime hearing first, or will be disposed of.

The only issue is the ones that are openly advertised tend to be in Scotland. Then when they are advertised they are usually at short notice and you have to go to the auction house on the day to find out what is up for grabs because if they displayed what was up on the internet it is likely criminals will break in to steal their goods back.

As for the smaller lower value goods they tend to end up on Ebay under the police forces account!

All the money raised goes to the treasury but the seizing authority can put a claim in for the money to make use off but most police forces then redistribute it to local charities related to cutting crime or keeping kids busy and out of trouble.

My bus number (if any): RMF2771