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Corrosion

We have belatedly started to get back into restoring RM 912. After removing the lower saloon lighting panels it became apparent that there was serious corrosion in the mild steel brackets, (RM 001 P15), which bolt onto the top of the lower saloon side pillars.

This has caused flaking of the pillars and deterioration of the solid rivets which secure the uprights to the cross braces. After cleaning up and priming we will use countersunk bolts with nylock nuts to remedy the problem but be aware, there are all sorts of nasties lurking behind some of the panels, some of which could seriously weaken the structure of the bus.

My bus number (if any): RM 912

Re: Corrosion

Another weak spot I've found is at the top of the pillar behind the cab on the offside, several I've worked on have been a bit live at the top of that pillar, sounds like the same problem.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Corrosion

Not a problem that is just starting to become apparent at this late stage of Routemaster life. Many had this in the 1980`s. Irritating squeaking and grating from the bulkhead behind the drivers head was a feature of certain vehicles as was a patch plate visible on the exterior.

Re: Corrosion

I would also recommend that while the lighting panels are off you change the saloon light wiring to copper, and throw away all the ali cable that was used.
This is also becoming a problem.
You are quite right about the solid ali rivets failing, I must have changed approx 300 on RM13.

Rob

My bus number (if any): RM48

Re: Corrosion

The other corrosion I'm finding on 2532 is the panels and beading, irritating bits everywhere even on relatively new panels fitted on refurb and later. On the recent repaint I've tried to wire brush down to the corrosion and use a fine filler paste to level it out, but other places have just rubbed it down and added more paint1 Not nice, but it's a service bus, not an immaculate restoration.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Corrosion

Neil G
Not a problem that is just starting to become apparent at this late stage of Routemaster life. Many had this in the 1980`s. Irritating squeaking and grating from the bulkhead behind the drivers head was a feature of certain vehicles as was a patch plate visible on the exterior.


When I was at Aldenham around 1967 we had an RCL come in following public complaints similar to those Neil describes> An examination found the foot bracket on the U/S N/S bulkhead pillar had cracked in two places, these were triangular castings with a hollow centre. A modified solid casting was designed and all vehicles overhauled after then had the foot brackets on the front bulkhead checked and changed IF fractured. They were not changed if OK. It's a fairly easy check to make, you can just remove the U/S coving panels to expose these brackets.

Other corrosion at that time was found in the panhard beams, Corrosion behind the lighting panels will have been caused by water ingress where the sealant has not been renewed for many years, this was very visible even on the last cycle overhauls where crude plonk on panels were put on the joints where the panels had corroded and the rivets pulled through.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: Corrosion

I've changed a couple of panhard beams over the years and found other horrors associated with those. On RMC1462 I found the 1/4" plate badly cracked as the bus had been run with the air bags lat for years! On 2532 I replaced the panhard beam with one of Rob Duker's creations, not an easy task but much needed! There wasn't much holding the panhard bar bracket on one end.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Corrosion

I have found several buses with the curved steel angle iron breaking away from the body cross member forward of the rear axle because the solid rivets have rotted away. Also the whole area around the rear spring tubes, what I suppose could be called the platform riser or bulkhead and the horns, the inner rear wing mountings, those wings themselves, the mountings for the B frame rear rebound rubbers level with the rear body jacking points and all the panelwork and some of the framing under the platform.

The B frame rebound mounting/horn/ally angle x member corrosion is a major repair hindered by the inner stress panels interfering with removal and replacement, that once the B frame itself has been removed.

The panhard cross member corrosion is a worrying aspect since the true extent of the damage is hidden. It is only when the the closing panel under the cross member has multiple holes and is clearly parted from the rod mounting bracket that even mention is made on MOT. It is not until the corrosion above the curved section of that bracket has joined up to the extent that the mounting looks insecure that a failure seems to be considered. Yet as has been said by that time there is not a lot holding everything together.

That is not even mentioning what happens to the B frame itself.

Should the vehicle be forward entrance then the issues with the lower deck flooring at the rear are transferred to the area around the entrance.The bulkhead/footbracket issues then become more relevant because someone has cut a big hole in the side of the bus, resulting in visible cracking to the external panel to the rear of the entrance which indicates trouble behind it. Upstairs the issues around the top of the staircase on a rear entrance bus appear somewhat in the now relevant area, but spreading to what looks like the beginnings of the collapse of the flooring due to heavy footfall.

Re: Corrosion

The RM flooring has always been a weak point, after all it's not very substantial, it's just a thin aluminium sheet corrugated into a top hat section and topped with another thin sheet, anything dropped on a gap would make a big dent. Although many angles, plates, brackets were applied around the flywheel and gearbox traps, the worst point on the floor was between the foot stalls, this was due to movement of the bus, and the friction between the solid angle under the foot stalls and the floor section meant that it wore away underneath and then often through the top hat section.
After all sort of attempts to fix it in place, plonk on edge strips, bigger rivets, bolted in place and angles bolted across the gap to try and reduce the movement at this point, we gave up and fitted plywood.

Plates were also fitted on a lot of floor bars just in front of the L/S seats as the floor sections were moving around, these were screwed in to the floor bars with self tapping screws! Nobody thought about getting them off again!
After all that, the sheets of wooden cladding were applied. They must hide a multitude of sins....

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: Corrosion

On 2532 I found floor over the rear axle was the original top hat section ali as I think I mentioned in a post on here a few years ago. The whole lot had become "live" and was falling away wherever it could. I replaced that with plywood flooring held in with bolts.

I suspect on the RMs we are seeing the same sort of damage that RTs and the like suffer, but in different ways! Everything will move over the years and wear, on RTs the timber in the frames is usually the first to go. Fortunately we don't have too much timber on RMs, but that that is still there, where handrails screw into will have rotted by now, hence as Brian says, longer, bigger screws!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Re: Corrosion

The whole saga of the lower deck floor was apparently down to a refusal by the design section at Chiswick to acknowledge that there would be a problem with the floors. (I was told this by the coachmaker at AE garage many years ago).

Up to about body B 400 the seat legs on the gangway side were secured with two bolts per leg but this was reduced to one per leg because the inflexibility was causing the floors to distort. If you have an early body you will find that the brass ferrules for the additional bolts are in the fixing channel but disused.The additional holes in the seat legs were filled with a dum-dum material.

Interestingly, the early seat legs have the RM part number stamped on the foot of the seat leg but later ones do not.

My bus number (if any): RM 912

Re: Corrosion

I'm just wondering how many of these mild steel corrosion and other horrors can be addressed from inside the bus - if any can't, people who've had expensive, immaculate paint jobs could have an equally expensive problem in future ....

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Re: Corrosion

Nail firmly hit on head Brian.

I well recall a certain DMS which had been through the paintshop and was BEAUTIFULLY SHINY, but had received no mechanical or even mechanical inspection whatsoever, when it was discovered that among other things the internal stress panels were absolutely rotten so many shiny new panels had to come off so rectification could start.

As has been mentioned several times the time to do a rewire or even just a partial rewire is BEFORE painting, especially if any internal restoration is being done.

Re: Corrosion

Shades of that East Kent Regent V that was in my place at Romney Marsh, lovely paint job and internals, chassis, well, you can tell that story roy!

And my DMS2333, nice runner, half decent paint job, but the front body pillar just behind the door came away from the lower body.

My bus number (if any): RML2532