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Fitting Wings/Mudguards

I'm struggling to fit a fibreglass front nearside black wing/mudguard and I wondered if anyone else has solved the problem. The wing has a flange at the top and it seems impossible to fit the aluminium trim over it so the trim fits neatly flush with the bodywork. I'm assuming this is because the original part was thinner, being made from pressed metal. Every other bus I've seen does seem to have theirs fitted neatly however. I did wonder previously if the flange was supposed to fit underneath the bodywork but I find this is firmly secured in several places with what looks like 1/2inch headed flush countersunk solid rivets which don't look as if they are intended to be removed. Any suggestions please?!

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

Are these 1/2" rivets really solid or these?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flange-head-rivets-4-8-x-12mm-250-pack/94795?tc=DT8&ds_rl=1249481&ds_rl=1245250&gclid=CjwKCAiA15vTBRAHEiwA7Snfcw-K7eSlYJ1UqR17VUnNwUjWzmFAtsN5N9sSfgNfqoIRhpFgZro-BBoChckQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CIGE9qHN7tgCFVcg0wodf1MDBg

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

There are so many bodges and mods on Wheel arches/mudguards that even I am struggling to remember.

For as long as I can remember, all the Black ( or green on country buses) mudguards on RMs and the rear of RTs and RFs have been either Plastic or GRP.

I'm not sure If I've ever seen alloy ones but can recall Alloy Nearside front panels on RMs.

Some later post LT ones were a very poor fit made out of a thicker GRP and less flexible. The outer radius which fastens to the frame did not have locating holes for screws and had to be drilled and often no ease of movement for a good fit. GRP is also brittle compared with the plastic type and these arches do need to have a bit of flex in them.

I might be wrong but I seem to recall that the correct beading had a flange on the inner face to allow a smooth fit between the body panel, beading and the arch/mudguard.

I have seen the thinner plastic ones fitted behind the bodyside panels and over the bodyside panels.

One of the problems is that these get damaged first and more often so the fastenings get damaged and the inevitable rivets and oversized rivets get used as a quick fix, or indeed the only fix. There are all sorts of horrors hiding behind the panels but usually repairable. The overriding factor for the bodge or cover up repair is time as the vehicle is required for service and this is a minor reason for being off the road. Standards were really poor post LTE.

With the GRP arches, they need a bit of reprofiling on the outer radius and very careful sanding to reduce the thickness on the mounting edge face. But this compromises the integrity and you might end up with cracking which will permeate into the paintwork.

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

Hi Roy - Thanks but no, they're definitely just plain flat discs with no centre hole. They are interspersed between holes with inserts for the screws to hold the trim. It really looks as though they are not supposed to be removed. Having looked at the other black wings/mudguards on my bus I think I've probably answered my own question unless anyone knows better. The other trims, reapplied by London Central, are simply screwed/riveted over fibreglass wings the top edge of which can be seen between the top of the trim and the bodywork. I don't know if the originals were pressed metal but if so I think they would fit better (although the trim has a shoulder on both edges when I would have thought it would have been better to just have one on the outer edge). All I can think of is to try to taper the flange of the wing towards the outer edge without weakening it too much at the point where the screws go through so as to reduce the gap - or just try to do it as neatly as possible a la London Central!

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

Sorry Jack - I was working on and posted my second post before I saw your very helpful reply. Looks like we're on the same wavelength re reprofiling.... Thanks Roy and Jack!

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

Hi Brian,
I know what you mean about changing RM mudguard panels. When it came to 2463 i only had to change a couple of them as i managed to repair the existing ones, but they are all of the thicker type of fibre glass as you mention.

The way i approached it was to make sure the ali surface behind the mudguard was clean and put some panel sealant behind the wing which i found helped to smooth out any unevenness, helps support the mudguard more and also keeps any moisture out between the panels.I also took off the connecting bracket at the top where the two mudguards meet and then re riveted it back once i was happy with the two mudguard positions.

Mind you when i changed one for my mate Pete on RM 642 some years ago it fitted perfectly and within 20 minutes it was all done and we were having a cuppa.

When it comes to doing the mudguards on 2460 i have managed to get hold of the thinner type, so when the times comes to fit them i'll see how much easier it is. All i can say is with some jobs every bus is different.

Kind Regards,
Peter.

My bus number (if any): RML 2463 & RML 2460

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

Thanks Peter, that's very helpful. The panels from N & M are a bit thinner than the previous Greengates ones but not as thin as sheet metal. As you say, all our buses seem to be slightly different now even though they started off the same because of repairs and modifications over the years - mine for instance has no ticket bin on the rear wall at the foot of the stairs, presumably because of rear end damage at some point - and as Jack says, it seems different garage staff had different approaches to fitting in the latter years. Mine had an awful botched rough bit of bent, barely painted aluminium over where the lower deck tv screen would have been (I replaced it with an advert box from Barnsley retrieved with the guidance of Ian Townsend about 10 years ago)

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

You will have a problem Brian if the new wings are thicker than the recess you should have on the N/S front wing moulding. But you can sand them down to fit as Jack suggests.

They were originally metal as were all the wing valences but this didn't last long on the RMs. The LT ones were plastic, not GRP, which maybe where the problem lies as people use old ones for moulds which get progressively smaller and often thicker.

The go on top of the panel putting it under the panel would not be possible on the wing and plain daft on the rear wheelarches!
The moulding should be fitted with set screws as should all mouldings and strap plates below the waist on an RM, this was simply because to keep drilling out rivets would mean holes getting bigger and bigger in the framing until they need larger and larger rivets.
IF you have set screws still, start each one a couple of turns but don't tighten any until you have them all in and started, However, if you have a refurb you may have pop rivets which case you should drill off only the heads and punch them through to avoid oversize holes!

The wing valences ones we had at Aldenham had elongated holes to allow a bit of movement to ensure a good fit, the problem you may encounter in fitting this particular wing valence is if the nosing part has been knocked back or the rear of the wing assembly has been bent forwards by an accident, it should be parallel with the bulkhead with a uniform gap all the way down.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: Fitting Wings/Mudguards

Thanks very much Brian. Just about all the set screw inserts are still in place but I may have to order more screws from the
Association. I think that the wing assembly is still aligned properly but I will spend a bit of effort getting the trim, which is a bit wiggly, flattened out. Some of the holes at the front were over-large through drilling out so I've filled them with 'chemical metal' and will carefully redrill them.

My bus number (if any): RML2302