ROOF


Thank you for visiting the Routemaster Owner and Operator's Forum (ROOF). Please feel free to use this forum for the mature discussion of any issues of interest and relevance to Routemaster owners. Please do not use this board to publicise your feelings about individuals, National or Local Government or TFL policy. Owners of other London bus types in service during the 1950s, 60s and 70s are also welcome to contribute to this forum.

The ROOF website www.RmOOF.co.uk has more items of interest and illustrated technical guides. The forum and website are independent and not connected with any association or club for Routemaster owners.

Please do not respond to abusive posts but notify ROOFmoderator@gmail.com.


ROOF
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
RM for sale?

Harry’s old bus up for sale?


http://www.coys.co.uk/cars/1959-leyland-aec-routemaster-double-deck-bus-by-park-royal

My bus number (if any): BS5

Re: RM for sale?

This has Body B1609, so some interior features different to the original B108 but I see it has aluminium cant rail mouldings with plastic insert, can't have been much after this one that they changed to a flat painted moulding. Anyone know which was the first bus to have this modification?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

I thought that B1356 marked the changeover to the flat painted moulding and beyond that only the RMC`s had the `jam sandwich `style. RM 1563 has the later style on B1552. Something doesn`t look right here........

Rather fortuitous coincidence if the bus and many classic cars are going to be on display `for viewing` at Syon Park tomorrow as that`s where I`ll be with a coach tour. Not that I`m expecting to get anywhere near the RM!

Re: RM for sale?

I have RM 1356 as the first to have the flat painted cant rail mouldings if your RM has them then RM 108 cannot have B 1609 or it has had them installed.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

It would be interesting to see if the Conductors bell push is in the upper or lower position. All those in the lower position should only go with the earlier type of `jam sandwich` cant rail moulding.

Re: RM for sale?

I carried out a few hours work on this vehicle earlier this week; I was not aware of its imminent sale. Compared to the last time I saw it at Showbus shortly after Harry had taken delivery, the pictures show that it has had further restoration work done to the interior, with the seats now recovered and IIRC, the old wall covering replaced. Since my equally lamented friend Ted Price has, like Harry since died, and since like me he was involved too in the vehicle's initial restoration for Harry, I can say that he would have ensured that when it went to the paintshop decals were applied under the canopy to identify the body fitted. What is obvious from the pictures is that it does not have fixed front upper deck windows. In fact, when Harry first had it the vehicle had an incorrect n/s drop glass window bar fitted on the o/s/f, since we were unable to obtain the correct fitting. About the only things of interest to enthusiasts I noticed on Tuesday was that in spite of it sounding like an AEC, the vehicle is still in fact Leyland powered and has Simms electrics.

Re: RM for sale?

Neil G
I thought that B1356 marked the changeover to the flat painted moulding and beyond that only the RMC`s had the `jam sandwich `style. RM 1563 has the later style on B1552. Something doesn`t look right here........

Rather fortuitous coincidence if the bus and many classic cars are going to be on display `for viewing` at Syon Park tomorrow as that`s where I`ll be with a coach tour. Not that I`m expecting to get anywhere near the RM!
Just found an interior shot of RM 1000 which has body B1604 and it has the flat painted cant rail mouldings. Check of Aldenham records says RM 108 was fitted with B 1609 26 April 1981, but either it wasn't ie an Aldenham error that was never corrected, so this doesn't have B1609 or someone has gone to a lot of trouble to change the mouldings on RM 108, and that I doubt.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

Well, much to my surprise, I was able yesterday to have a look at RM 108 at Syon Park. The notion that dozens of potential bidders would be fighting for space around the vehicles on display for `viewing `prior to the auction was way off the mark. When I wandered in there was nobody else there and my approach to the staff on site was met by a friendly response to have a look round. I even pushed my luck and asked if I could take some pictures and to have a look inside the RM. Go ahead, they said....





So, some observations. Here`s the proof of the `upper `position bell push



A very tidy interior. The seats are in good condition but many are very faded. They look 1980`s. Certainly not recently re-trimmed.




I and a colleague made a point in the early 1980`s of trying to list every RM that had PermaFloor. All of the buses that had it it were in the B1400 - B2000 range. Some, but only some in that range didn`t have it. My records show that the body supposedly on this bus (B1609) was one that didn`t have it.



No bus that had `jam sandwich` mouldings should have had PermaFloor. What do you reckon to this picture, Brian? Doesn`t look like LT standard to me...






Lots of little things are not correct but I have to take the view that it is the owners prerogative to do as they please.




Very tidy engine




This doesn`t neccesarily mean anything




There is no body number displayed. I reached up and ran my fingers along where one should be expecting to find the outline of transfers but it was totally smooth. A new panel? Well rubbed down prior to painting? A reason for not wanting it seen?

It`s a very tidy bus and I hope it goes to a new owner and survives as seen here in a way that the previous owner would feel happy with. Guide price of 50- 60K could rule out many genuine preservationists.




The first part of this text just goes to show how appearances can be so deceptive. Those who don`t know about the vagaries of Routemaster overhauls would just assume what logic suggests. I think this is actually an RM from 1963.....




I`m not going to be able to add to this over the next few days as I`m about to go out of the UK for a short break....

Re: RM for sale?

All very odd!
What would have been interesting would have been to see the moulding from the cant rail to the waist rail curving behind the rear upper saloon window. On early buses this is aluminium with maroon insert, on later buses a flat maroon moulding.
I can't believe someone went to all the trouble of fitting the aluminium jam sandwich mouldings, for a start they have more screws, far less screws are used on the flat painted mouldings! The conductors bell puts it as after B1335 and if the aluminium ones are "original" a body between B1335 and 1355!
I have just seen courtesy of Malcolm Allan, that this was the Elmers End Show bus. Is it possible when they took off the mods like the colour band off the U/S radiator intake grille, they actually installed this aluminium moulding? In one place on the top deck as Neil's photos shows, it is short by over 1" so certainly been taken off at some time. Wonder what screws are under that plastic insert, the original ones are countersunk.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

Having checked Keith A. Jenkinson's Routemaster Dispersal book, RM108 does indeed carry B.1609 which of course was new as 609 DYE. I also noticed that RM1609 is still extant in France and carries lower B.438.

My bus number (if any): RMs737, 875 & 1353 (driver)

Re: RM for sale?

We bought RM 1609 from PVS at Barnsley
We sold it to Eric Vaultier who had made an excellent job of restoring it for transport at his racing circuit near Lyon.

Doesn't explain why RM 108 has old cant rail mouldings though....Someone must have gone to a lot of trouble fitting them.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

Interested to hear that RM108 didn't sell at the auction.

My bus number (if any): RMs 238, 471 and 2213, GS17

Re: RM for sale?

Think it may go back onto Classic Car or ebay Chris?

My bus number (if any): RMs737, 875 & 1353 (driver)

Re: RM for sale?

Brian Watkinson
All very odd!
What would have been interesting would have been to see the moulding from the cant rail to the waist rail curving behind the rear upper saloon window. On early buses this is aluminium with maroon insert, on later buses a flat maroon moulding.
I can't believe someone went to all the trouble of fitting the aluminium jam sandwich mouldings, for a start they have more screws, far less screws are used on the flat painted mouldings! The conductors bell puts it as after B1335 and if the aluminium ones are "original" a body between B1335 and 1355!
I have just seen courtesy of Malcolm Allan, that this was the Elmers End Show bus. Is it possible when they took off the mods like the colour band off the U/S radiator intake grille, they actually installed this aluminium moulding? In one place on the top deck as Neil's photos shows, it is short by over 1" so certainly been taken off at some time. Wonder what screws are under that plastic insert, the original ones are countersunk.
Seems I was right Neil!
Chap on facebook has confirmed that Elmers End actually went to the trouble of swapping the cant rail mouldings on both decks from RM 64 (which had B64) when RM 108 replaced it as their Showbus. Who said garage staff were run off their feet....

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

Although I don`t do Facebook, I can see the RM appreciation site and have read the thread regarding RM 108.

Too many things just don`t add up.

RM 108 was the first `showbus` at ED arriving from overhaul in May 81. RM 64 arrived in September 81 and would have been a more suitable `showbus` on account of having its original body. As the corespondent on Facebook said `when RM 64 arrived we swapped lots of interior parts from RM 108`. Why? What would RM 108 with B1609 have that was better or more authentic than RM 64 with B64?
He also says `we changed RM 64 from a Leyland to an AEC`. As far as I`m aware, no early bodied RM`s had Leyland engines.

I`ve found on Flickr a couple of good, clear, shots of RM 64 taken in 1982. One taken at a rally with the bonnet open shows an AEC engine - and in the other picture the original `jam sandwich` moulding is clearly visible. Which rather overturns the statement made. We can all agree that the `jam sandwich moulding on RM 108 with B1609 should not be there. So where did it come from? Not off RM 64. Why would it?

I`ve just put a couple of my slides in the projector: One is of RM 64 in service in September 1982. It looks superb as a 1960`s appearance showbus. By this time RM 108 had been `abandoned` as the ED showbus.

The other slide is one I took in July 1984 having posed RM 108 at Bus Sales on 17 July 1984 just after it came back from chassis clean and silvering prior to sale for preservation. It has a white band and white roundel and as one of the first RM`s sold into preservation, it has the legal letting painted out and also the garage code - but ED is still visible. I recall this sale well as the chap who was buying it stalled on the collection date a couple of times which created a concern that it might be an aborted sale but it eventually departed on 14 August 1984 - having been listed as withdrawn on 9 June 1984. If I had a magnifying glass I could probably see for sure if it has the `jam sandwich` moulding.

RM 64 departed from the Sales Department on 21 May 1985. It was listed as a `wear & tear` engine failure and was one of over fifty AEC engine RM`s to go for scrap in that month as a result of a big clear out at Bus Sales.

Re: RM for sale?

I think that ED chap is somewhat confused about what happened to those buses. RM 108 still has a Leyland engine, did ED change it for an AEC, then put it back again? I doubt it, but then again they probably changed the cant rail mouldings!!!

I agree Neil, B1609 has had the aluminium moulding fitted to it, it's not original, and was likely put on at Elmers End using spare pieces from Stores perhaps. The fitment by Park Royal was never as bad as that and Aldenham would never have let it go like that!!
One thing I noticed when stripping aluminium "jam sandwich" mouldings at PVS is that they have double the fixing holes than the flat painted ones, so that would have made a swap difficult unless the inserts were in place to take either sort of moulding.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

I certainly agree with your view that Aldenham would never have let a bus go out with that gap in the moulding.
But I find it too difficult to accept that it was sanctioned at garage level to spend the time to swap mouldings for cosmetic gain. Especially after what you`ve said about the different fixing holes. Had it been a direct, quick swap it would be time consuming enough. Would there really have been that quantity of the aluminium moulding sitting in stores? The red plastic insert I can understand being a stock item as I`ve seen sections missing as a result of deliberate vandalism. But how often would a complete bus set of aluminium moulding be needed? Not a likely accident repair is it? And another thing: If the original moulding was held on with screws, my picture of the section beneath the rear dome appears to show an out of line rivet - possible aimed into a screw hole?

As it couldn`t have involved RM 64 which already had the earlier moulding, I think it`s more probable that the `conversion` was done in post LT days when scrap buses were plentiful to donate the aluminium moulding. I also wonder if the PermaFloor came from a scrap bus. I can`t claim my records are infallible but to have B1609 listed as not fitted with it takes on a certain suspicion when it now has jam sandwich moulding that also shouldn`t be there. Anyone undaunted by the task of taking the entire cant rail moulding off a scrap bus would probably be equally unfazed by drilling out the rivets to remove the PermaFloor from a scrapper. It`s a good picture that I have of RM 108 ready to leave the Sales Department but it`s not enough to see for sure what`s inside it!

Re: RM for sale?

The business about the holes not lining up for the screws reminds me about someone I worked with many years ago. He had been employed at Tilling Stevens as either a fully skilled machinist or fabricator - I can't recal which. Having been made redundant when the factory closed he went on a government retraining scheme and came out as a vehicle mechanic. I asked him to fit a pair of LONG VEHICLE marker boads to the back doors of a trailer. His original trade training then took over. An hour later he had finished marking out in chalk where on each door they were to go, the holes had been marked out on the doors, duly centre popped, piloted and drilled. The markerboards had been measured, marked out, piloted and drilled at the same centres as the holes in the doors and he was about to pop rivet them in place.

The normal method used was to place the marker board in the bottom corner of the door, hard up against the door rubbers, hold it in place and having centre popped the board already, drill through board and into the door, fit one rivet, repeat in the opposite corner and then repeat for the rest of the securing fixings. Or, if simply replacing faded markers, put the old board accurately on top of the new one with both on a piece of wood. Using the old holes as a guide, drill the new holes and then rivet in place in the old door holes . Both methods about 15 minutes work plus acquire tools etc and put everything away again.

Re: RM for sale?

Neil G
I certainly agree with your view that Aldenham would never have let a bus go out with that gap in the moulding.
But I find it too difficult to accept that it was sanctioned at garage level to spend the time to swap mouldings for cosmetic gain. Especially after what you`ve said about the different fixing holes. Had it been a direct, quick swap it would be time consuming enough. Would there really have been that quantity of the aluminium moulding sitting in stores? The red plastic insert I can understand being a stock item as I`ve seen sections missing as a result of deliberate vandalism. But how often would a complete bus set of aluminium moulding be needed? Not a likely accident repair is it? And another thing: If the original moulding was held on with screws, my picture of the section beneath the rear dome appears to show an out of line rivet - possible aimed into a screw hole?

As it couldn`t have involved RM 64 which already had the earlier moulding, I think it`s more probable that the `conversion` was done in post LT days when scrap buses were plentiful to donate the aluminium moulding. I also wonder if the PermaFloor came from a scrap bus. I can`t claim my records are infallible but to have B1609 listed as not fitted with it takes on a certain suspicion when it now has jam sandwich moulding that also shouldn`t be there. Anyone undaunted by the task of taking the entire cant rail moulding off a scrap bus would probably be equally unfazed by drilling out the rivets to remove the PermaFloor from a scrapper. It`s a good picture that I have of RM 108 ready to leave the Sales Department but it`s not enough to see for sure what`s inside it!
The jam sandwich moulding as you call it Neil is held on with cheese head screws sunk in countersunk holes in the moulding. Lots of work was done at garage level supposedly at weekends and evenings etc, to convert buses back to original as delivered condition.
Re-installing (or installing) the O/S route blind isn't a five minute job, and that was done on many show buses including yours.

That moulding may have been available in stores as a roof accident would have needed it, but saying that I believe there is one RM that has flat painted mouldings on the top deck.
Unless someone connected with the bus at ED comes forward we will never know who fitted it, but I think that your theory of post LT is more likely and yes plenty of that moulding was available at PVS.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RMC 1458, RM 1585 and several RTs

Re: RM for sale?

RML2532 is offered for sale, asking price £37500. Cummins C series, recon gearbox, king pins and wishbone bushes replaced, tacho fitted, new eyes down seats, class 6 ticket to April next year, many windows replaced. Good runner, very economic to run. Will do 50+ mph.

My bus number (if any): RML2532