Once the splined joint is badly worn the propshaft is scrap, the flanges etc are available, but there is little pointin trying to repair since there is only the tube left. The easiest solution is a new propshaft. There are plenty of companies who are able to manufacture propshafts from scratch. PSV Partsmaster is about two miles away from such a company. Another is roughly between Bexleyheath and Plumstead garages.

I can't recall offhand the Hardy Spicer Series number for RM propshafts. As said it is a waste of time trying to recover a shaft once the splines are worn, because in all probability the yoke bores will be oval by that time, and everything will be needed anyway.

http://www.hardyspicer.com.au/PDF_Files/Driveline/B2_Catalogue_2017-9-lr.pdf

Thanks Roy
They want the yoke end to replace the one on the tube, not the spline end>
This is on an RML so it is the end that attaches to the diff. You can get them for Land Rovers and the like.

Problem will be how much wear there is on the bores and the U/Js, I recall at Chiswick there were at least three standards (like with the king pins) for wear to the yoke.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585 and several RTs

You can get overhaul parts for the yokes. The X pieces and the bearings that go with them. Make sure you use imperial size bolts on the flanges, not metric, they work loose!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

Any idea where Roy?
You can mesage me on Facebook if you want, if you can help, we need a seal for the rear axle and diff. Tim Barrington suggests the diff seal is a standard bearing seal and is helping with that, but I am not sure about the half shaft seal.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585 and several RTs

Unless you are extremely lucky you are going to get absolutely nowhere trying to change the rear hub seals without the proper hub nut spanner. You almost certainly will not be able to tighten the nut sufficiently to adjust the bearings correctly AND fit the locking bolts. There are two seals, 52542550 is the inner and 55065050 is the outer seal, this latter goes in with the lip facing to the outside. The correct outer seal should end in 7/16", but these are NLA so the .50" seal has to be used, which makes fitting the circlip difficult. The inner seal runs on a large register/spacer which WILL be badly grooved and U/S. If you are lucky and it has not been turned already then it can be reused, if not then a new one will have to be made. This needs to be made from EN8 at least since it has to withstand the crush loading from the hub nut torque. If there is too much end float when the hub nut is fully tight then the inner hub seal will still leak because the hub will act as an oil pump. So far I have not found the running surface for the outer seal (on the OD of the hub nut) to be badly worn. If the aluminium inner seal carrier is damaged then you are in trouble. You will need to make a new paper gasket for the 1/2 shaft. Do not mix up the inner and outer bearing cones, they are, and should be, different. If the part numbers are the same then that is wrong.

I don't have the diff flange seal number to hand, but the numbers quoted above are the imperial dimensions for the hubseals which any bearing/ seal supplier should understand. The diff seal can be measured to obtain the correct seal number. The diff flange register again will be worn,I use a CR99264 repair sleeve to restore a suitable surface. Nominally the hub flange running surface for the seal is 66.67 mm 2.62" or 2.5/8" If the flange nut is not tight then the pinion and flange splines will be worn so oil can run up the gap and still leak even with a new seal.If the whole lot is not so badly worn as to be scrap then O rings smothered in silicone sealant and the correct loctite for the splines generally work. New paper gaskets for the Pinion bearing carrier will have to be made and the shims will have to be cleaned since disturbing the bolts will allow rust and dirt between them resulting in a leak.

I have now had a chance to check the part number for the diff pinion seal: 33726237. I have come across a different seal being fitted, when rather than using a repair sleeve to restore the running surface, the surface has been machined. This reminds me that if the flange nut has been loose for some time, then there is a danger that the splines will protrude through the flange because of wear to the inner vertical face. The nut will then never be able to clamp the flange securely. If this transpires then at the very least the shims adjusting bearing preload are likely to have been damaged.

While it would be possible to identify the correct yoke, flange and sliding joint part numbers, without the necessary equipment to align these properly and to balance the shaft afterwards, then if the alignment and balance is unsatisfactory the out of balance forces will ultimately result in damage to the transmission or engine. For instance as an extreme example, it is not unknown for a crankshaft failure to have been traced back to driveline imbalance. Even the simple mistake of misaligning propshaft universal joints can set up a severe imbalance. Propshaft 'in field' repairs should be limited to renewing universal joints and centre bearings.

Thanks very much for that information Roy. I will pass it on.
Here we have the classic problem of 3rd hand problem solving! I'm not sure they are taking off the hubs only that the half shaft joint appears to be leaking, and that if I understand you correctly they can make new gaskets/seals for these.

As i understand it, the work is being done by a fully equipped HGV garage in the port of Lorient, but a Routemaster is a new vehicle to them and they do not stock the right parts.

I will pass on the diff info, that will help a lot, I am sure.
Thanks again

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585 and several RTs

Hopefully they will have a mechanic old enough to have worked on Willème or the later PRP heavy vehicles, in which case the axle will possibly be familiar. The seal part numbers are, as said, in standard notation for seal identification, merely in the correct imperial units. It is easy enough to measure the relevant parts requiring to be sealed to arrive at these numbers. The n/s/r is the more difficult, but from underneath it is possible to see if the inner hub seal is leaking, so requiring a complete strip down. IIRC the Trident uses a ZF rear axle and it is a Trident rear hub bearing cup I use as a mandrel to fit the outer hub seal. They need to be reminded that n/s wheelnuts are left hand thread as is the n/s/r hub nut.

If they do need to remove the hub, then since it is a serious safety concern,'due diligence' requires a very careful inspection of the condition of the automatic brake adjuster operating link, and particularly its retaining split pin, once the peg bolt has been released in order to wind off the brake shoes. The details of the relevant part numbers, which are readily available from the UK,(Michael J Langley) are on the Forum. The link rods and brackets are replaced as an axle set.

Going back to original topic, so the second-hand shafts are not worth using and therefore are you guys recommending that the RMOOA dump all their stock of second-hand shafts ?

Just asking ......

My bus number (if any): RM1368

I don't think that's what's being said as some may well be very useable. Carefully check any that are being sold for re-use or get them overhauled by one of the firms mentioned.

Some of the "used" units may have had a short service life, others my be suitable for scrap, some are worth rebuilding.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

The answer probably requires a vote from members, which I suppose could be done via a tear off slip in the magazine. The conundrum is that in any group of vehicle owners there will always be a section who just want 'another' part at the cheapesrt possible price. That section has to be catered for by the relevant club. Conversely there will be another group of members who want what they need 'off the shelf' as a service exchange unit, they accept that they will have to pay the full commercial rate for the privilege, but that is the level of service they want.In the middle unfortunately are the time wasters - who want to know that the part is on the shelf, but if they can get it £10 cheaper elsewhere they will wait a fortnight or longer.

From the club's point of view it depends on whether the space occupied by second hand propshafts could be better used. Imperial will I'm sure be able to advise whether it is worth stocking new shafts or if it is worth examing the stock witha view to selecting the best for attention. They will also know the spread of prices between a shaft made from genuine GKN parts and one made from Chinese parts. IIRC a genuine GKN UJ kit is in the region of £100 depending on the discount offered. A cheap alternative is about £25.

What I can say is that in the last 20 years I have only come across two sliding joints on a bus that were badly worn enough to condemn the shaft, some have been close however. Tandem drive is the complete opposite situation. Live cups in a yoke really have to be checked with a new joint to assess whether it is realistic to attempt remedial action.

From my limited knowledge of carden shafts from 320 shop at Chiswick, LT employed at least 3 standards for the yokes and U/Js.
Depending on the wear, the housing was bored out to the most appropriate standard. Whether these "oversized" joints are available now I don't know.

What always intrigued me was the face on the connecting piece was surface ground to be absolutely flat. Was that necessary given that 8 or so bolts pulled it together on the the mating coupling?

In our case we may need one or two for an RML, but how do I get one from the RMOA that will be of use? Even in the UK if you are not near the stock, how do we get a good one?
Do I get a load sent over to try and hope one will be FFU?

What it probably needs is as Roy suggested, the 2nd hand cardens are assessed by a competent fitter for further use. I would suggest Lionel but getting hold of him is difficult and he is miles away from the stock.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585 and several RTs

Everything to do with a propshaft is about balance. There is a limit to how long a rotating shaft can be without some form of central support. That is why one needs to use the tailstock when machining bar in the lathe. Think about the effect of a front wheel/tyre that is out of balance. Chiswick machined the mating face of a flange to ensure firstly that it would be falt and therefore clamped evenly, but also to ensure it would be rotating in a true palne to its mating flange.

I used to have an Alfa 75, this had the transmission as a unit at the rear of the vehicle. The propshaft uses rubber couplings - 'Guibos' This was balanced as a complete assembly even the nuts bolts and washers had to be kept in the correct specific location.

I was asked today to investigate at the end of the rally season a rumble and vibration which occurs between two specific speeds. The speeds coincide with what I would assume to be the most common constant velocity the bus ran at between distant stops. I made a considerable improvement a couple of years ago to the vehicle by renewing the centre bearing. I suspect the true culprit will be the worm drive axle, however I shall start by removing the propshafts for thorough assesment. They will more than likely be either slightly bent or out of balance at certain rpm.

An interesting aspect there roy, that prop shafts can be in balance but out of balance at certain speeds.

I've seen some horrors abroad, an RM in Germany with a UJ so badly worn I fail to see how it could be driven for any length of time; and with the same owner a Bristol Lodekka with rubber bushes on the bearing housing that were non-existent. Luckily I found some shock absorber bushes that could be ground down to fit.

The RM prop shaft was only fit for scrap.

As an aside people sometimes ask if I can make their RM go faster. with the Cummins yes it is possible, but I wont do them as there's no guarantee of the condition of the porp shafts or UJs. Or the brakes for that matter. I wouldn't want to be held responsible for that lot vibrating through the entire drive train. It's not so bad on our bus where I can keep an eye on things and I know what may be wrong with it. Any vibration on the drive train can cause failures elsewhere.

My bus number (if any): RML2532