Following on from a post about whether to have chrome sidelight surrounds on an RM or not and the continuing debate amongst preserved bus owners and “commentators” about what condition buses should be maintained in, it occurred to me that as time goes by more and more new owners may not have access to finding out what their buses should actually look like if they choose to preserve the bus to represent a particular period or condition.

Some owners prefer “as withdrawn”, some “as delivered”, some in a hybrid condition due to the cost or lack of spares to achieve a particular “look”. Some have Showbuses with chrome all over the place and polished aluminium where there was none and some prefer to keep their bus as at a particular date in time.

I am not going to comment on which is preferable or correct as there is no right answer, it really is personal choice but if an owner chooses a particular period or condition to preserve their bus in, it is best to know what it really should look like so as to avoid those situations where due to lack of information there are vehicles preserved in a condition in which they never ever ran in service, for example some late RMLs have grilles on the front wings and ROUTEMASTER above the stock number, a condition that only those of the first batch ever had in service, of course again personal choice if that is what the owner wants but not as the result of lack of information.
If you want to know about the condition of a particular RT or RM type bus at a particular date (before the RML refurbishment), I am prepared to advise owners on what their vehicle should look like, should you choose to ask, I have access to extensive documentation and photographic evidence plus many years experience on accident and overhaul work at Aldenham including extensive knowledge of modifications made to the RMs in service, so feel free to ask. I am not sure if Chris would want the enquiries through the Forum although there will I’m sure be an enthusiast interest, So I’ll wait his ruling but feel free to Email me in the meantime.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RML 2667, an RMC and now RM 1585 as well

Thanks Brian, it would be great if users could ask you questions and see your replies on this forum.

I agree that owners should decorate their buses as they want, but if they are making it clear it is supposed to be authentic for a period they should make the effort to get it right!

First question. RM471 has chrome headlamp surrounds and RM2213 has brass headlamp surrounds painted red. Is either or are both correct for the time the were delivered (1960 and 1964), or are they both wrong?

My bus number (if any): RM471 & RM2213

Easy one to start with Chris, no production RMs or RMLs were delivered with chrome on any light surrounds. Even the RMs and RMLs that went abroad like 898 and 902 to the USA and 2396 which later went to New York did not have any chrome light fittings.
Where chrome light fittings became popular was after the MB, SM and DMS deliveries, all of these vehicles having chromed light surrounds as standard. As these parts became available in the garages staff just used what was in the racks and as the new type buses became more numerous they found chrome ones which should have been painted over for use on RMs. On the contrary, it was not unusual to see MBs and DMSs with red painted surrounds on the sidelights and reversing light signs.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RML 2667, an RMC and now RM 1585 as well

OK, another starter for 10 - In what year (or over what period) was the use of leather for the edging of the seat base discontinued?

My bus number (if any): RM1699 Eastbourne Regent V 69

Hiya

My bus, RML2330, was delivered new to GD Country bus Garage and spent all of it's life in the country area at that garage.

She went back to LT after early retirement and started work again in the Central Area, was refurbished by Leaside in 1993 and continued until 2004 and then finally retired for good.

The set period is 1967 and I believe that She had a cream band to her green livery at that time.

As far as I know, and I could be wrong because she is the most un-photographed of all Country area RML's, The nut rings were painted as were the side / head / tail and stop lamps and the lower saloon front bulkhead saloon heater duct was covered in grey raxine to match the grey window surrounds above the maroon waist rail. I also know the mudguards were painted green but were the life-guards painted black or green because I don't know this as I was a CRS person and didn't have much to do with our Country Cousins.

Naturally I'm only able to restore the body to this condition, the mechanics will have to stay as the 93 refurb but the only visible bits of them will be still the same as originally delivered apart from some of the cab switches and a rear cab sliding window.

Your knowledge on whether i'm correct of not would be much appreciated because I don't want to paint the bus twice and would like to get her right first time. :-)

Claire

My bus number (if any): BL49

I'm going to duck Steve's question at the moment as I need to do some checking, my gut feeling is that leather was dropped from the ends of the cushions first after the M's and Ts came along without this and the RTs had been withdrawn, so post 1980 but I am not sure if it was ever dropped from the squabs post refurbishment and material change, I will see if I can find out some more.

RML 2330,
Had a cream band to her green livery at that time. Correct
The nut rings were painted (green) as were the side / head / tail and stop lamps. Correct

The lower saloon front bulkhead saloon heater duct was covered in grey rexine to match the grey window surrounds above the maroon waist rail.

Not sure what you mean by grey Clair. There were two or three RMLs built with a totally different interior designs, white ceilings, light grey window surrounds, light grey or light blue paintwork and rexine and blue/green seats. A lot of the grey option was later adopted for the DMS and SMS.

The heater duct should be maroon below the waist and Chinese green rexine (the colour of the plastic window surrounds) above. Early versions had a maroon advert panel that was taken out of use and dropped altogether on the later RMLs when the heater control was moved to the centre of the chimney to allow the illuminated advert to be fitted, not all were fitted from new, there was a programme of retro fitting of a lot of the RMLs that went to Putney and Stockwell at Aldenham in 1967. There were also some RMs delivered to Hanwell in the 500 – 600 series that had a heater duct covered in shiny Chinese green plastic, I wonder if any survive to this day?

The L/S front bulkhead panels should be maroon but not in rexine, the front L/S bulkhead had a harder wearing pimply vinyl material also used for the front U/S bulkhead and U/S destination door.

I also know the mudguards were painted green but were the life-guards painted black or green?
They were black.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RML 2667, an RMC and now RM 1585 as well

Hiya

Ta everso for the info both on and off line and all is procceding apace now that i'm sure.

This strikes me as a really good and useful way of using a forum, thanks Brian and Chris.

Has anyone got a front exterior louvre heater grill opening panel that's spare as I need one for my bus as it's currently fitted with just a plain panel rather than one that has had the panel rivitted onto the existing louvre section of the opening front panel. Of course I would be happy to pay for this if anyone has one.

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): BL49

Claire,
The front heater grille for your RML would have been the later type.
Just 3 louvres then the cream band.

The earlier type had 8 louvres but was blanked over in part by the extension of the band which was a retrofited part.

C' reg. RMs and RMLs had a lighter simplified cover. Most 90's refurbs had this simply plated over. Is yours the same?

My bus number (if any): none at present

Hi Jack

Mine was a Leaside refurb (40 or so buses for LBL) and it looks like that somewhere between then and 2004 a plain plate was fitted with the centre band trim rivited to it, which is a shame now that I want to revert it back but it won't be the end of the world if it takes me a while to find one because there's quite a bit to do before i'll be happy with her restoration. I was lucky in respect of the saloon lights though because Leaside just took the fitting out without causing the severe damage to the panels that a lot of other buses suffered so reinstatement has been a nuts and bolts job, tedious but effective and more importantly the reversion costs have been kept quite managable, which has surprised me so far lthough the orange coloured grab rails nd stanchions are begining to prove a problem.

Claire

My bus number (if any): BL49 / RML2330

That seemed like a pointless refit by Leaside.
A simple bit of alloy would have sufficed.
Is the existing panel a frame when opened? It should have a few holes along where the louvre retaining bolts were.
I would get up to the scrapyard and get a complete one before someone has all those swiped and on ebay.

My bus number (if any): none at present

There aren't any at PVS Jack, all long gone. As this door had no use in the heating system of the RMLs the blind and radiator all being removed or should have been as apart of the refurb, I suppose we are lucky that they were not all just panelled over, I think a lot of the London Central RMs certainly had the door just replaced with a panel.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RML 2667, an RMC and now RM 1585 as well

My aim is to restore my RML to 1980's Hanwell look (as both me and my bus were there during the 1980's) probably post dry advert fitting (1987 ish). I believe externally the colour would be all over red (did they have a white band?)and with the white roundel on each side as well as white bonnet number and garage code. I have got to find a way of modifying the wing to allow for the fog light to be refitted.

Interior wise I haven't yet removed the tv screens but assume all traces of the advert panel have gone. Does anyone have usable detailed drawings for this item. Also are all of the correct materials required still available(rexine, white stair nosings, floor covering and any other material I may need)?

However, before I start my RML work I need to sort my Metrobus to 1980's condition so if you have any details of materials, colours etc I would be grateful (away from this site obviously).

I have some RM (as well as M, T, BL, LS, DM) "Alteration advice" sheets detailing modifications. These are in the main electrical but some do cross over to body and mechanical work. Please let me know if any particular details are required and I'll look it up.

David

My bus number (if any): RML2276/M1001

Well, HL was one of my sheds and RML's had two spells there, broken by the bizarre allocation of DMs, having already endured nightmares with MBSs.
The DMS/MBS/Metrobus sagas left the RML fleet to very much fend for themselves as their reliability was miles ahead, but HL also ended up with an appalling reputation after I and others left, due to poor standards, lazy crews and the politics of madmen.
All part of that 70's era of decay.

However, by the time the first batch of original RMLs had departed (nearly all were F reg vehicles) they had all been through Aldenham and were in the Solid white bullseye/white lettering era. We had 2666 and 2760 for a while among others.

Most HL RMLs were white inside not sung yellow.The Yellow was on the upper deck only. (To conceal the nicotine staining)

The second coming was a selection of RM and RML vehicles all repainted and many were ex LCBS. Most of this lot went on to Q and the 12 route after OPO.
Gradually the RMs were replaced by RMLs though one or two RMs hung on here and at at UXbridge. RM2207 being one of the UX ones

HLs included 2345 2336 and 2630 a really superb runner.

They were all in LT standard red with white band,white lettering, a mix of white and sung yellow saloon ceilings, burgundy rexine, Tartan moquette, Alloy foot platings and the whited edged platform. None carried ad frames while I was there. All had Desmo mirrors fitted. None had any chrome trimmings although several arrived with such from Aldenham. UX had a few from CF which did keep them for a while.
The HL code was two number plate characters on a black background and the running number plate background was also gloss black. The R/No. plates were yellow.

In 1969, All RMLs had gold lettering and a flake grey band. In fact, correct me if I am wrong but the grey band was standard from one of the late RMs on and all C,D,E & F reg. These RMLs did not have a cream band from new.

Also some of the newest/highest numbered RMLs had a non underlined gold fleetname and the first white banded repaints also had this type of fleetname for a few years before the white solid roundel and the change in shade of red occurred.

My bus number (if any): none at present

Hiya

Yet anuvver question.....

The mounting plate that bolts into a recess in the cream band and holds the front trafficators. Should this plate be painted cream or green, I know that the body of the front trafficators are green but i'm not sure about the mounting plate and I can't find a piccy that's clear enough to show this detail. Any help would be gratefully received.

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): BL49 / RML2330

Hi Claire
It should be cream, it was part of the cream band and the all over red or green indicators were fitted after painting.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RML 2667, an RMC and now RM 1585 as well

The large colour print on the rear of Ken Blacker's Routemaster Vol 1 of resplendant RML2429 illustrates the cream mounting plates in Brian's post.

I understand that if you are using the original square mounting plates, they are often, being cast alloy and old, rather brittle and prone to fracture when trying to seperate or retighten to the main body and to fix them to the bus - best practice is perhaps to avoid seperating them, paint and to carefully bolt to bus while still together.

My bus number (if any): RML2747 @ DD6

Hiya

Thanks Brian, cream it shall be..

Graham, I'm using new castings and when I removed the refurb'd 'Rubberlite' fittings, apart from getting soaked 'cos one of them was full of water, I found very little damage to the original area, even the bolt holes for the casting are ok, apart from a few holes for 'pop' rivits. They had painted the bus after fitting the lights because there was one bit that had the grey band and underneath a white band and below that the original cream. It just goes to show as i get further and further into removing the refurb bits and pieces that the job was not as thorough as we may have been led to believe. Sung yellow behind the Trans light fittings and grey rexine beneath the white paint on the front heater tunnel. Once the mirrors were removed the fittings were still there for the original style n/s and o/s driving mirrors. It's turning out to be an easier job than I expected although I am replacing the old bolts with nice new ones.

I replaced the bulbs in the 'ear' fittings with 24v ones and they worked fine so I'll leave changing it all and go with the current set-up for the trafficators.

Still looking for an original style driving mirror and a grill for the l/saloon front heater tunnel if anyone has one they would like to sell.

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): BL49 / RML2330

You would get cream or a different grey underneath the indicator castings as the indicators were not removed on repaints only overhaul and most of these RMLs had repaints last. Be careful removing any of these bolts into the O/S bodywork, mirror and indicator casting as they can and often do snap off, the nearside is not so bad to get at but on the O/S its very difficult to replace the bolt fixing. We used to drill out the bolt and fit a spring type device into the hole called a helicoil it had a special fixing tool, andf this produced the right size thread for fixing the mirror etc without having to strip out the panels after painting to change the bolt fixing.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RML 2667, an RMC and now RM 1585 as well

Hiya

I was very lucky then because I got all of them out after clearing off the paint build up and using WD. The bolts showed signs of corrosion so I refitted with new bolts.

Lucy at this end of the world because there's an old shop at the Bakers Arms that sells nothing but fixings and ironmongary and wraps everything up in newspaper. They still have BA, Whit, and UNF nuts and bolts but sizes are becoming limited now.

Claire

My bus number (if any): BL49 / RML2330

Ah... Bakers Arms. Was there a lot when I worked at Wipps Cross Hospital in the 1970s! I can get virtually all non-metric sizes at our local nut and bolt supplier, Stirling Nut & Bolt, Peterborough. I'm in there once or twice a month and am happy to pick up anything ROOF users want.

My bus number (if any): RM471 & RM 2213

for those interested i think quite a lot of routemasters were delivered with chrome fromt side light rings check some period photos.regards tim.

Sorry Tim, but no RMs were delivered with chrome sidelight, rear light or headlight rims. The chroming of head and sidelight rims was a phenomenon of the much later MB, SM and DMS classes, all of which entered service long after the RMs and RMLs had been delivered, it was from these parts sources that RMs started to acquire these chromed parts initially for Show buses. No RM or RML presented as being in as delivered condition should have any form of chrome rims.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Brian is correct about RM and RMLs but BEA, RMC and RCLs were delivered with chromed front sidelights , tail lights and rear indicator frames.
The wheel trims and headlight rimes were painted.
Even the FRM did not have chrome features when new.

This can clearly be seen in vol. 1 of the Ken Blacker bible, Pg. 105 shows RCL 2242 on delivery from PRV & pg 88, RMC1454 just days old.

Much chrome came from MBS/SMS and DMS vehicles. Some more from BL types and later supplies of replacement parts as all Lucas lighting spares were only supplied with chrome bezels from 1969.

Do you know Jack, after seeing your post I looked at my photo collection and found that you were 100% correct, the RMAs and Green Line RMs had chrome light surrounds from new. I must admit I had never noticed that before!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

An update. I have been doing some research on when various design changes and modifications were done to Routemasters. Obviously there is a practical and financial limit to what one can do with getting a bus to an "as new/delivered" condition, as that all depends very much on what body it finished up with!! For example if you have RM 1956 say with body B203 it would not be really possible to make it RM 1956 as delivered or vice-versa if you see what I mean.

Some of the items below would be reasonably easy to achieve if desired, some would be nigh impossible if the body was not so equipped from new or in one case was never overhauled.

1) The brake cooling grilles on the metal N/S and O/S nosings were plated over from RM 1901. After that plastic nosings without a space for the grille were used to replace complete nosings on repair and overhaul and the metal nosings scrapped.
2) The O/S route number blind was omitted from RM 1743 onwards.
3) The used ticket boxes were red up to and including RM 1063.
4) The cab door wearing strip on RMs up to B 1067 was painted red.
5) First RM with colour band extended across the front U/S heater grille was RM
2063.
6) First RM with white lower deck ceiling RML 2674
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other “ conditions perhaps impossible to replicate on a later or earlier bodied RM.

Exterior O/S illuminated adverts were fitted to RMs RM 1923 to RM 2121 inclusive.

The conductor’s bell “ under the stairs” was moved higher on RMs after 1335.

RMs from 5 to 1355 inclusive had the polished aluminium cant rail mouldings with the maroon insert on both decks. From B 1356 a flat painted moulding with less fixing holes was used.

The O/S armrest in the U/S rear N/S seat was removed from RM 1703 onwards and this mod was also done on overhaul.

I am still trying to find out (and/or remember) which RMLs were delivered without the L/S illuminated advert fitted, there were quite a few which were done on a retro fit at Aldenham in 1966. Also I cannot find a body number for the mod when the spacers between the seat stanchions and the roof were replaced by a longer stanchion cup, I believe it was around the time of the change to plain cant rail mouldings, anyone have a body number?

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Looking back over past posts on this subject, I noticed one about leather seat ends which doesn`t appear to have been answered. At some point during 1974 when I was at AR we started getting RMs back from overhaul without the leather edge to the seat squab. Most, but not all - some buses still had it and I would guess that the two styles must have overlapped for a while. In 1980 when I was at M, RM 116 came to us with all leather edged seats in the lower deck. I would imagine that a determined effort must have been made at TC where the bus worked prior to going to Chiswick to get rid of old stock seats.


Was it in 1974 that the first white lower deck ceilings appeared? We had quite a few of these come to AR then. They certainly made for a bright lower deck at night but seemed to accentuate the misery of a cold bus.

We also had one of the three RMLs with the blue / grey interior. I think these were bodies 2674 - 2676 and on first overhaul one of these came to AR as RML 2678. I feel sure it had blue leather ends to the squabs. It looked very strange compared to the usual colours. I always thought it lacked the cosy, warm feel of burgundy, tartan and sung yellow!

Another point that doesn`t seem to have been aired: All around the rear window and from about waist level upwards in the recess that the conductor stood in there was a rexine covering from new. I can actually claim to have worked on RMLs that had not, at that point, had their first overhaul which, when they did, resulted in the aforementioned rexine being removed. I`m sure there were still RMs around then with this too and usually it was very tatty especially the bit around the outer edge of the rear window. Presumably being weather exposed and getting a nightly soaking from the bus wash it was often torn and quite damp.

There used to be an `in house` poster above the conductor recess. Several of our buses had these in 1974 though they were the minority as if they were on the way out. Usually the poster was to do with avoiding rush hour travel or a request to have the right coins for your fare. I seem to recall that the latter began with `Please help the conductor by having the correct fare ready`. Most posters had been `locally` altered with the `having the correct fare ready` bit replaced with: 1) Staying at home; 2) Getting off; 3) Going by tube.

Not sure I`ve ever seen one of these posters on a preserved bus. No doubt someone will say they`ve got one!

No, the date of the omission of the leather ends from cushions and then squabs is hard to pin down, Neil. I'm not sure the date of the first bus coming out of overhaul without leather ended cushions or a replacement to the garages coincided with the start of new buses arriving in such a condition, the first new buses to arrive without such trimming was as far as I know the Ms and then Ts, the DMSs certainly had leather ends on the cushions and squabs at first then they were left off the cushions. All the MBs and SMs appear to have had leather ends except the vinyl trimmed seats on a few MBss of course.
Again white ceiling introduction on new buses is not the same date as that of new buses and with RMLs it was the three blue/grey trimmed buses that first had white ceilings which entered service in 1967, this was later done on overhaul, I think about 1973/4 at first to the L/S and later the U/S, although few RM ceilings were painted due to the longevity of the original stove enamelled paint, being roller applied the finish of the reapinted ceilings never matched that of the original stove enamelled paint and it browned horribly.
I think the rexine was removed from around 1972, at first it was only damaged rexine, in particular down the left hand side of the staircase and as Neil says all around the rear L/S frame and the inner staircase stringers, also the conductors locker/fare table door. It was removed on overhaul and on replacement parts going oput to the garages like rear frames and conductors locker doors, as far as I remember staircases were not sent out to garages with rexine on them, this was for the garage trimmers to apply.
The reason why some RMs retained it longer than others was the repaints started in 1967, which extended the overhaul cycle of some RMs to 6 years. Rexine was retained up to refurbishment on the interior panels and the "decency" panel on the top of the staircase with the fixed stanchion.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

I wrote "I am still trying to find out (and/or remember) which RMLs were delivered without the L/S illuminated advert fitted, there were quite a few which were done on a retro fit at Aldenham in 1966"

Now found this out. It was actually a large number, some 210 buses - RMLs 2351 to 2560 inc - were delivered without the interior bulkhead illuminated advert frame. This was due to concerns about the ability of LT commercial advertising to sell the space in them to fund them, but those already fitted were proving a success and they were then retrofitted in a programme of 10 buses or so a week at Aldenham during 1967.

So if you want your RML in "as delivered condition", that illuminated interior advert is going to have to go!!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Hiya Brian

Phew!! Just scraped in then with 2330.

We like that advert panel and change the advert in it from time to time.

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): RML 2330 etc

Just a small point; the first 400 or so production RM's had four bolts, two per leg on the gangway side, to hold down the seat frames. This was later reduced to one per leg. Most bodies fitted with these seat frames still retain them, you just need to dig the dirt out of the holes.

My bus number (if any): RM 912 & RML 2455

By a fluke and the donation of some Buses magazines to my brother, whilst I still cannot find a definitive date for the exclusion of leather from RM cushion ends, it appears that in February 1981 RM 376 had the leather omitted from some seat squabs to match that of the cushions. This bus was also painted all red and had a large amount of its interior rexine removed and painted over, a practice already in place for the previously rexine covered panels on the interior of the rear frame and staircase. Before it entered service the white colour band was reinstated.

The same volume of Buses reports a number of RMLs were fitted with seats covered with RT style moquette at overhaul in October/November 1981. They were 2609, 2617, 2624 and 2649.

My bus number (if any): RMC 1458, RTL 960 and 15 RTs