Hi There, i am the proud new owner of RML2719, or i will be when i have figured out how to get her back down to Somerset! As a lot of you are probably aware, she recently sustained major damage to the rear by way of a lorry ploughing into her! I appreciate that i have undertaken a mammoth task in trying to rebuild her, but unless i am missing something that you guys are aware of, i honestly think that the damage can be put right! When i went up to look at her last week, both i an my body shop chap crawled underneath to take a good look. There were no visible signs of the B frame being kinked or bent in any way. Although the bus has had a hard shunt,the platform appears to have acted as a crumple zone and the underside appears not have been affected. We paced out the wheel base on both sides and although obviously not completely accurate, there appeared to be no difference. The rear cross member has moved back, but has stopped short of the B frame. This has caused the kink above the N/S/R wheel arch, unless you advise me otherwise, we think that by removing the panels and pushing the cross member back into alignment, that should bring her back true again.

Please tell me if this is not the case, i really want to do this restoration properly and restore her to the highest standard

cheers
Chris

My bus number (if any): RML2719

Hi Chris. I am an ex London Transport apprenticed coachmaker who used to work on RMs in the overhaul shop and body accident shop at LT's Aldenham Works, I currently work in France helping out with the maintenance and repair of RMs and the previous London bus, the RT.

Before we go any further its clear from the photographs that is not superficial damage and it will take a lot of work and parts to repair it, assuming that you can get the parts. It helps that the L/S rear frame, the U/S rear frame structure, staircases and platform are all assemblies/units that can be replaced complete or made up on the ground and fitted complete, the sourcing of those replacement parts will determine the success or otherwise of this project.

You should, if you go ahead with the repair given the insurance complications, try and get those parts as complete units possibly from PVS at Barnsley before they all go or you could be held to ransom for these parts. PVS are not cheap for RM parts, they know the value of the RM parts, that is why they kept them, but you will get a fair price, you might be better off trying to get a donor vehicle with a rear end in reasonable condition, which I believe you are looking at as an option.

LT would only have repaired that bus in its early life where the book value exceeded the cost of repair. The bus is repairable if the B frame is not badly bent and the floor bars in the first bay (in the cross wise seat area) are not too badly damaged or fractured and if you can get the replacement parts which is why I think a lot of people shied away from it, apart from the fact that the description by the owners that it could be repaired by a handyman suggested they had not a clue about the real extent of the damage to this bus.

Routemasters are not difficult to repair, they were designed to be easily repaired, you just have to know how to do it. Forget any ideas of a cut and shunt of a good back half onto the front of this, it sounds OK in principle but in reality is far more work than actually rebuilding what is there.

Your theory about getting the rear cross member/platform riser/entrance step panel back straight is correct, but you will probably have to remove it to do it and check the condition and alignment of the structure below. That plate goes up to the used ticket box height on both sides) and you will have to remove the B frame for access and to get the coil springs out of the way as you need access to the rivets and bolts in the "tubes". You will also need to strip the exterior as far as the small bay on the L/S to perhaps release all the stress panels behind the damaged exterior panels up to the small bay to allow the bottom framing to return to its original position.

You have my E mail and I know that other knowledgeable people who use this Forum are on the case so let us know if there is any additional information or assistance you require and of course progress with the repair.

Regards and Good luck

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Brian is right, a repair/rebuild will be better than a 'cut and shut. parts will be a problem above all else.

The problem will be that of space. We used to send our buses with rear end damage or severe damage to Aldenham and Brian may confirm that they used datum points and jigs to realign vehicles.
That said there cannot be a single RM that has not had rear end damage/repairs at some stage.
General heavy repairs are as Brian said, straightforward and relatively easy.
Aldenham also had all the parts to hand so very few damaged parts had to be repaired or remanufactured.

Once you start, the bus may not be moveable for quite some time.
Once the subframe is off you will have a large vehicle with no wheels and not easy to move safely. It will also need full access to the underside.

If you find dimensional damage, it will take a while to rectify, as most parts will need to to be fabricated (although many have done this)

It may be a write off but that might be more to do with the book price (which is low) and the economic repair costs. Labour of love is not included in this factor.

As long as you have space to store while ongoing work is carried out then you will get there eventually. But the damage looks severe and lots will need to be checked carefully.

My bus number (if any): none at present

Thank you Brian for your intial appraisal of the situation. I am very lucky in as much that i have my own commercial bodyshop with guys that have a lot of experience when it comes to crash repairs. What we do not have is the experience that you guys have relating to buses and their construction. I will post pictures and details of this incredible journey we are about to undertake and i would really appreciate your input and advice along the way.

One thing that has reared its ugly head and i did not account for is that the insurance accessor who appraised the bus after the accident, has deemed the RM to be a category B writoff! I have investigated the implications of this and apparently the bus can never be used on the road again! Has anyone else come accross this situation and is there a way around it? Surely if the vehicle is repaired properly and undergoes a VIC, we slhould be able to get the vehicle reclassified to a category C.

I really would like to get this matter cleared up before i go down the route (excuse the pun)of major expense.

Again i would welcome any wise words that can be offered
Thanks again Brian

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML 2719

Hi Chris,
I would consider seeking out the whereabouts and availability of RML 2630, Which I gather was last seen lurking derelict in North east London, I'm sure someone will know.

This was a most excellent bus in it's time at Hanwell and had a very good body.
It has suffered mechanically but I would say that it would be a better candidate for restoration as it is just derelict rather than terminally damaged.
You could probably get a perfect result from the fusion of the two.

I'm sure someone here on on the other site will know more about it and if it is still intact.

Regards
Jack

My bus number (if any): none at present

Jack
AFAIK, RML 2630 is the ex Imperial one in PVS that cannot be bought complete and can only be broken for spares. If no others are available it could make a good parts source, although I suspect it may have already donated a lot of parts to other vehicles.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions, i am investigating several avenues at the moment and will report back on my progress. i really think i have to have a chat with the ministry and see what they have to say about the Cat B situation.

Can anyone tell me where i can get hold of a set of diagrams showing the entire construction of an RM and would those diagrams give dimensions and correct positioning of crossmembers etc.

Unless i am completely barking up the wrong tree, am i right in thinking that the best way to proceed is to firstly remove all the damaged areas and then remove all the external and internal panels around the damaged area? This should then give me a clearer idea of how much shifting has taken place within the integral body structure and how much of that has to be repaired or replaced.

Cheers
Chris

My bus number (if any): RML2719

"Unless i am completely barking up the wrong tree, am i right in thinking that the best way to proceed is to firstly remove all the damaged areas and then remove all the external and internal panels around the damaged area? This should then give me a clearer idea of how much shifting has taken place within the integral body structure and how much of that has to be repaired or replaced"

In a word Chris Yes!! Strip off the exterior panels first and then see how it looks.

You may not need drawings although they will help if you have to construct assemblies from scratch. Despite views suggesting otherwise all we used on RMs at Aldenham was a straight edge, nothing else. As every part on an RM was jig drilled, if it joins to the other undamaged parts it will be correctly aligned, then check with a straight edge, horizontally and vertically, simple as that really.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Excellent!,that is words i wanted to hear. i have looked at pictures on the net of RMs with the external panels removed. It all seems to make sense now, i particularly understand about releasing the framework to allow it spring back into place(hopefully!). i can see that only when this is done you can ascertain the real damage to the body. The more i think about this, the more i am convinced that from what i have seen the damage is contained around the rear cross member and corresponding upright behind the wheel where the used ticket bin sits adjacent to. Only by stripping back are we ever going to know. How far do you think i will have to go to ensure that the stress are suitably removed and an accurate picture can be formed?

Cheers for now

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML2719

Hi again Chris
From what I remember of the damage, and I have not seen an O/S rear view of the bus mage, you will need to strip off all the panels from the rear including the rear dome. As I cannot post pictures on here I have done a mark up on pictures of the bus and E-mailed it to you at home. The rear frame has already been taken off, but get the bits, you might need them. The bus appears to have escaped above the N/S platform, so you might be able to leave that but strip all the panels anyway, taking off and putting back these panels is the least of your worries and take off all those that are distorted, I would take off everything from the pillar in front of the N/S rear wheel and back and around to the same pillar on the O/S. Remember to clearly mark all strap plates and mouldings with a pencil as to pillar position etc as it makes putting back a lot easier.

What appears to have happened is that the platform has gone forward into the riser and distorted the near side of the rear bulkhead, as long as the structure is not physically damaged, torn or broken, you will be able to straighten it and reposition it with cramps and bars, heat is not recommended for Routemasters!! You will only know the real damage when you get the panels off. You might also find the U/S floor is distorted, the staircase valence panel (the one from the rear waist to the stanchion at the top of the stairs ( to the right of you as you go up the stairs), is fixed into the floor and may well have moved the floor. On the O/S the staircases have taken the brunt of the damage and hopefully will not have damaged that side of the rear bulkhead, the real work on the body is hopefully around the riser and the replacement of the entire rear frame, top to bottom.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Good Evening everybody,

I have been watching the thread develop on another forum regarding the fate of RML2641 and the other RMs at Lillyhall. If i managed to locate a complete body in tact, is it legal to change the body without affecting the true identity of RML 2719? Furthermore, would this effectively change the status of the writeoff?

your thoughts again would be appreciated

thank you

Chris

My bus number (if any): RML2719

Interesting proposal Chris, you could of course “easily” change the body from another RML, by simply changing the “chassis” (A frame and B frames) from your bus to the donor body. LT did this almost daily with its Routemasters on overhaul (see this thread http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/3715842662/show/943682 as it’s a complicated subject) but then you would have what exactly?

Its been the subject of some debate over the years as to what constitutes the identity of a bus, the body or chassis or both, given that LT regularly changed the chassis and body combinations of its vehicles and the chassis identification numbers, (the body retained an original number), its a complicated issue

You have the chassis of RML 2719, SMK 719K, it has the body originally fitted to RML 2722. The original body on that bus B2719 is now on RML 2674 which is preserved. The “chassis” could be from any RM or RML.

However, despite all this, I would say that it would not change the status of RML 2719 as it is probably the chassis number and registration that has been recorded as to be scrapped. But how does that work with commercial vehicles? Surely if it’s a body write off, its perfectly legal to re-body a vehicle isn’t it?

However, all the legal issues do not stop you doing what you propose. You could then either use the registration and identity of the donor vehicle as its new identity and/or register it anew. Whether you could just now do what LT did and just change the chassis number to that of the donor vehicle or even that of RML 2719, it only entailed stamping a brass plate, is open to debate and the subject of an early discussion with the DVLA, I would suggest.
In recent times bus owners with enough evidence of provenance, have been able to revert their buses to its original, as built body identity and registration and not that it held when disposed.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

I've just read the stuff on the other channel and have to say am shocked that stagecoach are breaking up such sound vehicles when there are so many that are in far worse condition about and yet would yield more or less the the same degree of recovered parts.

I would be inclined to approach them and see if common sense will prevail and if a swap with yours is feasible.
Given that they are to supply spares for Canada, the buses they exported had new stair cases and altered rear ends using a lot of new parts so a missing rear end ought not to be much of an issue.

I thought that the various clubs and associations would have liased with Stagecoach and found a suitable commonsense solution.

My bus number (if any): none at present

What has been said makes sense, however, when we are talking about swapping with the RMLs at Lillyhall.Are we talking about the whole bus or just the body. Why would they want to swap? What would be the benefit to stagecoach? Again though we still have the issue of RML2719 losing her identity, as much as i want to make my life easier by maybe swapping bodies, i really don't want to RML 2719 to cease to exist!There seems to be a couple of takes on this and it would be good to clarify what gives an RM ts identity,is it the body or is it the chassis/Reg Number

My bus number (if any): RML2719

I think you would be looking at a complete swap as frame/ body swaps would be not cost effective to anyone.

My bus number (if any): none at present

Chris
The body swap issue would only come into play if a suitable vehicle existed and the body of RML 2719 is a legal write off. As Jack says in any other circumstances its not an economically viable option to achieve the “repair” of 2719. Yes its a shame that Stagecoach are going to supposedly break those buses for spares but that is what LT did in 1983 as a lot of parts just could not be replaced, and in the real commercial world, given the silly money being demanded for RMs what other choice do they have. After all they are their buses and if they keep other buses on the road at no additional cost, that makes good commercial sense to me.

A lot of the rear parts on the standard RM can be adapted to a revised entrance configuration and I suspect they will also use a lot of the panelling and other parts as well as a spares bank for their other RMs.

The best bet Chris is, unless Stagecoach are prepared to donate or sell a rear end keep looking around for a suitable donor vehicle for the parts you need, as Jack has said there are a few around and more will become available when the novelty wears off and the real cost of owning and keeping a bus on the road dawns on some people.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs