Question for the techical guys - Are RM/L B subframes suitable for use as a direct replacement on RMC/RCL routemasters ? If they can be used is there likely to be much work involved ? I know the RMC has air suspension , would it be easier to covert this back to a RM spring if using RM subframe or would it be feasable to convert the RM B frame to take the air suspension . Any other info appreciated as well .
Thanks
Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

Mark asked, "Are RM/L B subframes suitable for use as a direct replacement on RMC/RCL routemasters?"

Yes in all respects except they will not be equipped for air suspension.

"If they can be used is there likely to be much work involved?"

If you don't want the air suspension and few RMCs were converted to coil springs due to spares problems with the airbags and associated equipment, its really just a case of jacking up the rear, getting the old B frame out, capping off the air supply to the rear tank and fitting the B frame.

"I know the RMC has air suspension, would it be easier to covert this back to a RM spring if using RM subframe or would it be feasible to convert the RM B frame to take the air suspension"

Yes and yes but!!. The simplest option would be to use coil springs provided that those on the donor B frame are OK. You can change the air suspension over but you would have to consider if its worth it and the future spares situation, mind you coil springs are not that easy to come by now. LT converted all the original air suspension fitted RMs with coil springs and some of the RMCs recovered from LCBS but I believe that these RMCs were scrapped, however I am sure that one of the preserved RMCs has been converted to coil springs so if this becomes a possibility for you no doubt the detail can be explored further,

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Brian ,
Thanks very much for all the comprehensive advice !
Cheers
Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

"LT converted all the original air suspension fitted RMs with coil springs" Not quite, there were at least three standard RM's that survived with air suspension untill the end of there days. RM 144 & RM 448 at WH & RM 141 at CT. I saw these buses for myself & they all had air suspension when withdrawn in the 1980's. Paul.

I can recall a withdrawn RM arriving at the old AEC site causing some considerable surprise when the bus inspection report mentioned air suspension - which it certainly had. It`s a long time ago but I know it was an HT bus and it was either 84 or 215. I`m also fairly sure that one (or both) of these - along with one or two others - became what may have been the only example of withdrawn stock at AEC being reinstated for service going on the 65 route to release crew operated Metrobuses to HW to replace fire damaged M`s there.

And mention of RM 144 having air suspension into the 1980`s is correct. I saw it too.

Probably RM 84 then Neil as that did go to NB from store at AEC and AFAIK survives to this day as ERM 84. I must admit to being surprised that given the decision to replace the air suspension on the central area buses was taken very early on (1963) that they all did not get converted on first overhaul, unless this was a make issue or a problem with the availability of replacement parts. As far as I can remember there were two makes of air suspension perhaps one type only was replaced by coils and the other left on the buses, to be honest I don't really know, all done before I touched an RM!! What I do remember is how lethal those air pipes were hanging down under the wheelarch the RM shop foreman nearly took his eye out on the end of one running under the rear wheelarch of an RMC that was in the elevated position for floor work, giving out payslips, they all had bags tied over them after that incident.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

This is, I guess, a subframes subject but It will probably re-ignite the `truth about body swaps` theme too and is possibly something that was not common knowledge to many at the time.

Due to a special high pressure water filling system fitted to RMs at Mortlake, they always got their own buses back from overhaul. Given that most were in the 1200 - 1600 series, they all came up for overhaul roughly at the same time as a rolling programme. It took well over a year from mid 1979 to late 1980 to do them all at last overhaul, but one by one each vehicle went away and subsequently came back usually around three weeks later albeit with a different fleet number.

I got into quite a lively argument one evening with my conductor who would not believe that a bus with one particular registration number could go away `to be painted` as he put it and return with a different one. To prove a point I got a centre punch and a hammer from the tool box of one of our mechanics and put a dent in the cab ceiling of RM1629 the night before it was collected for overhaul. Went through the `remember that dent, body number and registration number` bit with him and said just wait three weeks and I`ll prove it.

Sure enough, the body returned with the dent but with the identity of RM 1670. Now in any other garage it wouldn`t have been possible to do this (unless by huge coincidence) as we knew for sure that Mortlake buses always came home. Not a lot of people knew that.......

Neil

By 1979 with repaints etc, the overhaul sequence was all over the place and Mortlake had a fair mix of both Leyland and AEC engines and many RMs with bodies that were not from the original batches they had in 1962 and 1963 I'm not sure what this mod was that was trialled at Mortlake its a new one on me but I stopped staff bus driving from there in 1973 perhaps Jack can enlighten us If they did get their own buses back at Mortlake in 1979 due to some "modified water system" being fitted they would have only got the "chassis" back A & B frame not necessarily the complete bus that went away due to the changing of bodies, so it might have just been a coincidence that a couple of RMs came back with bodies that had been at Mortlake before.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Brian

Sorry to take issue with you on this one but I can assure you that the points I made are totally correct.
Mortlake was an all Leyland garage right up to the first large scale RM withdrawals in September 1982. The only exceptions to this were

1)Shillibeer RM 2142 allocated as the last of many garages it visited though when it was repainted red it came back to Mortlake for a few weeks before moving on to AW. A shame because it was a
cracking good bus but with totally cold heaters - somewhat ironic given the whole reason for this reply........!

2) The various `float` buses allocated to cover for our own buses when away for overhaul. These usually stayed just two or three weeks as cover for a specific vehicle. Mostly these were AEC engines but sometimes a Leyland might turn up though if one did it too only stayed a short while as cover for an absent true Mortlake vehicle. That alone would seem a bit strange wouldn`t it? A Leyland RM in a Leyland shed moved on to be replaced by another Leyland. It was done for a reason - to allow for one of our own to return.

3) RM 116 & 1982 - both Chiswick experimental buses.

All 36 RMs at Mortlake in 1979 fell into the body range roughly 1263 - 1583. It was really that precise - nothing lower, nothing higher and they really did go for overhaul within the timescale I originally mentioned - mid 1979 to late 1980 - with never more than two vehicles away simultaneously and, correspondingly never more than two `float` vehicles at any one time.
And every body that went for overhaul came back. No exceptions. Anyone knowing the 36 bonnet numbers at Mortlake in late 1980 could with access to body numbers and overhaul dates match them, albeit with different bonnet numbers to those that were there in early 1979.

And the reason? The high pressure water filler located to the right of the effectively redundant traditional header tank which was never used at Mortlake to fill up with water. Instead, hanging from the roof at the side of the bus wash was a hose with a sprung attachment that fitted onto the special device to pressue fill thus expelling air from the system. Once full of water and devoid of air, the surplus water came spurting out of ther usual overflow on the right hand side of the header tank. In some ways it would have been better - if space had permitted - for the device to have been fitted to the left of the header tank as it would probably have minimised the instances of the outflow trying to fill your jacket pocket as you tried to disconnect the nozzle.
The connecting pipe work to the top rad meant that the body had to be with the `underneath bit`.

It was perhaps more usual at Mortlake than in any other garage for drivers to keep the water level topped up in the expectation of this unique system being more likely to give you a bus with good heaters - providing the thermostat was ok. A cold Mortlake RM was unusual and generally attended to very promptly.

I think it was at the start of 1981 that we had a very cold spell with snow on the ground for several days. A watering can of bright green anti-freeze was put by the wash with drivers encouraged to use it to put in the header tank - a most unusual experience. It should have been so simple. Unfortunately the liquid soap used in the trough for pre-washing prior to using the bus wash was also green. One driver got the cans mixed up. By Barnes High Street the lower front of his RM had disappeared in a mass of bubbles. He fetched it back to the garage and it continued to produce bubbles for an hour or so looking like something out of an Ealing comedy!

In conclusion, I always had the feeling that this little Mortlake peculiarity was not widely known about. But I don`t suppose we`ll have to wait too long before someone else confirms it.

Well that trial or experiment surprises me Neil, so late on in the RM’s life but it was certainly the case that buses under experimental tickets and with special equipment were kept together and as you now confirm there were necessary body modifications the chassis and body would have been kept together wherever possible. I left Aldenham in 1978 only returning from time to time for stores related work, so I was not aware of these buses progress rthrough the works.
And of course experimental RM buses would have moved away from Turnham Green by then, Mortlake then being the closest all RM garage would have been a prime candidate for such trials. I wonder if it was extended to other garages or did the 1982 cull of RMs also kill that off, I certainly remember seeing RM 116 in Chiswick with an M code and it did run with its special suspension system I believe on the 9s.

However did Mortlake only have Leyland engined buses by 1980? They certainly had a mix of buses outside of the original range you quote in the mid 70s including RM 9 and 71 although it seems a lot of the oddities had gone by 1975. The last time I went there was about January 1983 after they had lost quite a few of their buses for breaking due to them having Leyland engines and Simms electrical equipment and they had been replaced by, in their words, a load of old tosh mostly from HW, maybe they only lost the Simms/Leyland combinations, not 1563 of course and that is why a lot of their buses survived the cull in late 1982 and not because they had AEC engines. As far as I am aware they certainly gained AEC engined RMs after 1982 to replace the scrapped ones. As you rightly say about the experiment, not a lot of people know that!!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Neil is indeed correct about the high pressure water top up system implemented at M.

The Leyland engine was found to be ideal for filling this way and keeping air out of the system and thus getting the heaters to work better was the end result.
It also led to fewer coolant related breakdowns.

So Mortlake kept its group of Leylands which were all fitted with this Mod.
Amongst them were 1403 and 4 and one of the first showbuses, 1563.
For those few years all of the M allocation were so well turned out that it was difficult to tell which one was actually a showbus!

I recall that the two main enforcers of Mortlakes superlative standards were both called Neil....could this be one of them? From the facts here, this is all correct so I'll say his information confirms my guess.

Later allocations did see some AEC RMs like 948 & 949, and I think 1978 0r 9 several of which went to V or NB/K.

Compared to HL, M was bus heaven and the damage to morale by it's closure and the kick in the teeth to all the efforts by all the staff, crews and engineers alike sent ripples of cynicism through all of what was then Cardinal district.

Once those small sheds went like R and M and UX, it was never the same.

Jack

I think Neil indicated that he was a driver at Mortlake, wasn't the Day Foreman in the 70's called Smith and the GEM Arthur Buckerfield?

I have been told by a former day foreman at GM that a similar system was installed on the run-in at Victoria and that its 2000 series exterior advert fitted RMs off the 137 were fitted with this pressure valve for filling to eliminate air from the system and improve the quality of the heating, maybe other garages and buses had this? The alternative method to eliminate air was apparently filling through the header tank and revving at the same time, obviously not a desirable option on the run in.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Looking back, I recall that Leylands and Mortlake were chosen for two reasons for this scheme.
One was that Leylands were a noiser engine especially when revved up and seemed to cause a lot of echo noise.

Mortlake Garage was in Avondale Road, an ordinary residential road and LT was conscious of being a good neighbour having had many years of complaints of RTs parked in the street.

part of this project reduced the need to rev engines in the early morning and at night.
GM was similar in being part surrounded by residences. I think GM also had a lot of Leylands

" I think GM also had a lot of Leylands".
Funny that Jack, originally they had none in the original batch of buses between RMs 2031 and 2056, however, at overhaul in the early 80's a number of these and a number at Norwood in the same batch that was supplied for the 137 also acquired Leyland engines. Norwood was at that time operating its buses from its temporary home at Clapham, so maybe they had a similar system of pressure filling at Clapham, another garage with residential neighbours particularly at the rear and one that had re-opened some 20 years after closing.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Was hoping someone would come to my rescue! Thanks Jack! Mortlake really was a Leyland only shed with the exception of the odd AEC RM as mentioned. But being a Leyland shed it was, inevitably, going to be hit hard by the Leyland/Simms cull of September 1982.
And that was when AECs became integrated with the remaining Leylands. They did come mainly from HW and they were in appalling condition with an interior and exterior appearance that genuinely shocked and saddened those who had to work with them. They were as far removed from what Mortlake had been associated with as you could possibly imagine. And, of course, they couldn`t use the pressue filler which set them apart even more. As a demoralising exercise it was a spectacular own goal by LT and created, in what had been a proud and efficient little shed, an awful atmosphere during its last few months of existance.

The withdrawal of about eight Leylands in September 1982 created a sad sight in the garage with these de-blinded but shiney buses ready for their journey to Ensigns for storage. I went with this convoy and travelled on the top deck of the lead bus with the rear emergency door open to take photos of those behind as we made our way across town passing service buses looking a whole lot worse than those we were taking for scrap. We came back in RMC 1476 ( a Mortlake trainer) and we all felt like we`d just been to a funeral. It was very sad.

My cover seems to have been blown! I was half of the pair that looked after RM 1563 and took it to many places outside London. I also drove it on its last run in service in May 1984 at V and later repainted the interior to enable it to be the Sales Department demonstrator giving it a few more years of LT ownership until the other Neil bought it. He still owns it now. I was also lucky enough to be very involved with the hydraulic suspension RM 116 and drove it almost exclusively in its early service days - and broke down with it more times than I can remember!

Mortlake was a very special shed to work in with many long serving `inside` staff. Len Smith was the foreman - a no nonsense man and proud of the reputation his buses had. George Corley, a later GEM was likewise with even less tolerance of fools than Len. When RM 1127 went to Aldenham for a B frame change and came back with all the upper deck seat cushions missing his way of dealing with the phone calls that got him nowhere was to go to Aldenham in his estate car and fill it with seats. Nearly caused a walk out there apparantly!

All a long time ago now but great days.

It now transpires that perhaps the pressure filling system was in place a long time before 1979/80 and not exclusive to Leyland engined RMs either.

The original batch of illuminated advert RMs at Victoria were AEC engined and this system of pressure filling was in use at Victoria in 1970, long before any of this batch of buses between RMs 2021 and 2056 were converted to Leyland engines. The purpose was only to improve the quality of the interior heating by eliminating air from the system, any noise reduction on the run out was a bonus.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Hi Neil
I don't know when RM 1127 went into Aldenham for it’s repair, but I can assure you that buses that came in the accident shop when I was there, left with whatever seats or parts they came in with.
When the repaints started in 1967 we took to replacing duff seats on repaints on the Finishing Line to generate a bit more work for the trimming shop, but as usual some garages started taking the proverbial, notably Peckham and buses started arriving with every other seat slashed or damaged, then missing altogether, they were all replaced for a while and then the practice of replacing seats was stopped.
The same thing applied to accident damaged vehicles, they were generally sent back to garages ready to re-enter service and missing parts, seats etc were replaced, but as the spares shortages grew, again garages took the p**s and cannibalised accident damaged vehicles waiting to go into Aldenham expecting to get them back ready for the road so again this practice was also stopped. I remember one MBS from NX being towed in with no gearbox and a lot of parts stripped out from the rear although the accident was a front end one, it went back on tow with a nice shiny new front and no replacement parts at all fitted.

Of course it’s possible that somebody took the seats from the Mortlake bus at Aldenham for some reason but why would Aldenham want bus seats, they had hundreds of them? So perhaps George Corley should have asked who took the seats off the bus in the first place, and then gone to the District Stores at Hounslow stores for his seats instead of wasting his time going to Aldenham. However, knowing of George Corley it may well have happened. The problem was that some of these people lived in a world of their own forgetting there were priorities and costs involved and a lot of other garages also needed material and parts, apart from Mortlake and the “Hounslow bus company” as it was known in other parts of the fleet. You would be amazed at the schemes certain foreman and staff got up to hide away parts like starters, alternators brake valves etc etc, completely ignoring the fact that at another garage a bus was on the wall due to not having these parts to fit. Happy days eh!!

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Mortlakes RM's were really superb buses, my favourite apart from 1563 ofcourse was RM 1338 which sadly was an early victim. When I used to go on a Red Rover to go & ride the nine road RM 1338 would more often than not be waiting at Aldgate Bus Station looking fantastic with that great MORTLAKE GARAGE destination proudly being displayed. 1338 is such a nice number too.
Another Mortlake AEC was ofcourse RMA 10 proudly named Alycidon by Neil T. & had that great power bulge in the bonnet to accommodate the turbocharger !! Or was it where the forklift went through the bonnet whilst doing an engine change? Happy days. Good to hear from you again Neil. Regards, Paul

When Hanwell started to regain RMLs after the DM disaster, We started to get RMLs from Aldenham that had been repainted and overhauled after reacquisition from LCBS.

It was a mixed bag but the seat thing stirs up a memory or two.
We had three or four which arrived with seats missing on the top deck.
Having only spare seats from DMS buses which were blue, and and newish Ms which were yellow/orange and having not had RMs for several years, we had no RM spares.
Naturally we could not put these buses out in service. With HL being a rather militant depot it never took much to trigger a stoppage. Odd coloured seats would be just the ticket for one or two shop stewards

It took 2 weeks to get the replacements and in the end 1806F (a ford escort estate inspectors car) was lent to go to Aldenham on a weekend and load it up with seats! I think a uniformed inspector drove the car!

We did deliberately put all the worst seats on a bus due for overhaul or repaint as this kept all the good seats on service buses. It made sense, especially as it took months to get a single seat replaced. I don't recall us sending a bus minus any seats though.

We were often so short of parts that we regularly had to raid AEC and other garages. Why we had to wait weeks for an RM wing or rear panel when a trip to Aldenham revealed dozens in stock always baffled me.

We were the front line, we put and kept buses on the road that were supposed to be safe and sound and in the best condition for the paying customers for whom the bus was ultimately intended.

Something, somewhere went wrong and for several years it was more like a war than a cohesive system, hence my exit!!

Good to hear that Neil 1 of Mortlake is still about, How is Neil 2 and RM1563, Anyone know?

Jack

There are two issues here, trimmers being overwhelmed by the volume of seats needing repairing or trimmers and stores staff not doing what they were paid to do. There was no reason for RM seats to take months to get from Aldenham to a garage, the coach lorry went to each main stores once a week and all it needed was a stores req to be sent in, although of course the overhaul programme always took priority there were always lots of seats going out to the garages. However, if no seats were going in with buses for overhaul as some garages started to do Aldenham had none to re-trim did they?
I can understand taking seats from buses going away to keep buses in service, but the problem with repaints was they did not always come back. I suspect the answer to HL's materials problems lay with a certain storekeeeper at Southall who locked the stores up when it suited him and who had at one time when I made him open up his Stores by ringing his phome non stop from the Foreman's office, enough RM side arms in stock to put every RM on the wall in the SE division back on the road, and at that time HW district had no RMs anyway. It got so bad at HW at one time that the Night shift or staff from another garage actually broke into the District Stores to get parts.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Oh dear - I seem to have opened up a rather lively discussion on seats now!

Both Brian and Jack have made points that are totally valid - and within my experience too - even though they are from both sides of the argument. Brian has a completely sound logic that Aldenham was the one place on LT that should have had all the seats one could ever need, that a proper stores requisition system was in place to procure them and that at district level it should have been so easy to get at the stock quickly when needed. But the example Brian quotes of excess stock being locked away to the detriment of those who needed it and the example Jack quotes of buses unavailable for service through overhauled vehicles arriving minus seats which were also not readily obtainable locally, emphasises one thing that I think we probably all agree on. Namely, that whatever the rights or wrongs of George Corley filling his car up with seat cushions at Aldenham, it was his (and others) commitment to the job that made it pleasing to be associated with the standards that they worked hard to achieve. Did any of us really imagine that nearly thirty years on we`d be reliving times that we once so enjoyed and which subsequently got lost in `corporate malaise`?

Ok, Mortlake had a huge advantage in not having troublesome rear engined buses and could thus turn out consistantly tidy RMs but it only happened because all involved thought it was the right thing to do. Yes, a small shed with a pro-active foreman and many very long serving craftsmen was always going to stand out as an example and we all know of several large sheds which simply couldn`t or wouldn`t do this. In all the time I was at Mortlake no bus was ever off the road for more than a few days and I cannot recall a single instance of a crew sat in the canteen with `No Bus Available` Maybe a certain amount of stashing away the most commonly needed stores items happened to prevent such things but I`d put my money on it being something quite personal to those old school guys like Len Smith and George Corley that got things done well.

Soon after we made RM 1563 into a showbus, its first `non service` duty was to take staff to Mortlake Crematorium for the funeral of a long serving conductor. On a drab day at a sombre event we thought this sparkly bus really looked the part parked up at the crem entrance. George Corley wandered over to where I and Neil T were stood. He was laughing like we`d never seen before and simply said `that`s brilliant`. We thought he was talikng about the bus and thanked him for letting us do what we had only to find that his joviality was directed elsewhere. Not noticed by anyone else was the slogan of the Harrods advert on the offside - Enter a different world. Parked right by the main door of the crematorium! We were mortified. George thought it priceless. Probably just as well for a few weeks later we were back there again in 1563 for George`s funeral. He would have enjoyed the joke and though we`d lost a friend we both said a couple of years later that it was probably better that he never had to see those awful HW RMs that came to his once proud shed.

I remember that story about the Harrods 'Enter a different world' poster.
I didn't know that RM1563 had two funerals of staff so close together.

People like George were diamonds and had it not been for their efforts and seat of the pants professionalism, I think things would have really got bad during those years for passengers in particular.

I agree with Neil that both sides of the problem have shown here. The problem seems to have been on the supply to garages not being as good as it had been and nobody seemed to be answerable or bothered to do anything about it.

HL had a big NBA problem with Merlins and later DMS types and a lot of that was down to parts supply that was beyond LT. But RMs and come to that all types were often sidelined for body parts, seats, indicators and for a while, mirrors.

I'm glad to hear that it was not just HL that went on inter garage raids!

No its not “lively”, Neil, its an interesting debate about past problems and as you say from both sides of the fence. I don’t think Jack meant that overhauled buses arrived without seats, repaints as some of the ex LCBS RMLs were, might have had seats missing or they could have been taken if they were stored somewhere else before transfer to HL.

After George Corley went didn't you get Arthur “Hounslow Bus Company” Buckerfield as GEM or was he before George?

I posted a thread some time ago about the “Myth of Mortlake”, whist not for one moment doubting the pride and work effort put in at Mortlake, they were really in a very privileged position as opposed to a lot of larger garages who due to their manning levels couldn't rather than wouldn’t aspire to the standards of garages like Mortlake, Brixton tried under Eric Pudney and even though they had a far bigger bus to craftsman ratio than many garages but still managed put in an effort. In the end Mortlake like Abbey Wood closed because it was just too small and uneconomical to keep going.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

I would have to agree, Brian, that Mortlake was in a unique position enabling it to fairly easily turn out those high standards. Apart from not having other classes of time consuming vehicles, it also had what I would have called `a higher than usual compliment of long serving staff` and perhaps a generous ratio of staff to vehicles. Emphasised when Fulwell took an allocation on Route 33 (and with it five of our RMs) with no corresponding reduction in workshop staffing levels. The loss of just five buses really made the shed look worryingly under-used.

Another important factor that contributed to Mortlakes enviable record on vehicle presentation which in some ways was unusual comapred to other sheds was that neither of our two routes ran through any areas of social deprevation and thus we didn`t get the vandalism often associated with such. Our seats didn`t get slashed, tungsten interior bulbs didn`t get pinched, graffiti didn`t adorn our buses.

My time looking after the museum reserve collection vehicles and the resultant scrounging of bits for them took me all over the fleet to garages that were eye openers as to what they had to contend with. And as already mentioned, the trim shop at Aldenham which I visited many times was seeing by the early 80`s an ever increasing number of seriously damaged seats. The unfailingly helpful trim shop foreman Ken Brown who gave no end of assistance to me and anyone genuinely involved in preservation often showed me the latest specimens to arrive in the shop. Frequently there was nothing left to repair so it was no wonder there were shortages in the system.

Whilst restoring DMS 1 I was put in touch with the Foreman at AL and told he would help with a chassis clean. This duly happened and on the day it came up in conversation as to how I would get seats for the bus when he couldn`t get them for his still sizeable fleet. I felt really awkward knowing that I already had a complete set put by. He showed me what they had which were pretty awful and easily outnumbered by a mountain of vandalised seats with no further prospects. To repay his kindness I managed to arrange, with full permission, as many seats as could be crammed into both decks of an RM taken from scrap DMS` s at AEC. Speechless wasn`t the word when we unloaded this lot at AL - it was more seats in one go that they`d had in months. I think we all knew that within weeks they would probably all be destroyed anyway but at least it helped at the time and it was much appreciated by another old school character who was an invaluable friend to preservation.

Great stuff Neil, when are you gonna write the book ? Paul.A

Hi Paul

Great to know you`re still as interested in all things RM as you were when we undertook so many different `restoration` projects. And as for writing a book, well you were there when so many of those fun times happened - and I`m sure you`ve got plenty to tell as well!

Neil they were fun times, very much so. Still in to Routemasters although I'm about to sell my RMC & concentrate on getting MD 60 restored. So I'm gonna be Routemasterless for the first time in 21 years !
You should do the book Neil, SMS's to Italy, RM 1563 to the IOW, FRM to Scotland to name just a few of your exploits. Paul.

Hi Neil G.

If you're still receiving messages on this I'd love you to tell me where on the ceiling you put that mark. I'm based in the UK but my brother in New Zealand works for a tour company in Christchurch NZ which has just acquired RM1670. They are trying to trace it's history and your posting here has thrown a BIG spanner in the works believe me! Anything you can add on this would be really useful.

Hope to hear from you soon.

kind regards,
Trev.

My bus number (if any): RM 1670

Hi Trev

Well I didn`t expect to be revisiting this subject a couple of years after my last posting but I can certainly tell you a little more about the bus that your brother knows as RM 1670.

New in the spring of 1963 as RM 1559 (it has body B 1559), it spent all of its service life at Mortlake. The reason for this you`ll have seen in earlier posts - the special high pressure water filling system. I don`t think this is a feature that can now be seen as I`m sure I`ve heard mention of a most unusual engine now fitted to RM 1670. But back to the bus history..

At first overhaul in the summer of 1968 body 1559 became RM 1562 and on second overhaul in May 1975 it became RM 1629. I worked on it as a conductor in 1976 and later, in 1979, as a driver by which time the third cycle of RM overhauls was giving Mortlake lots of ex works buses which sparkled. The contrast between these and those yet to go for overhaul wasn`t that noticeable as Mortlake vehicles were so tidy but RM 1629 looked quite different. The exterior was really faded compared to the other buses and its appearance created, for me, an impression of being a not particularly nice bus. Until the first time I drove it. Without a doubt it was the smoothest RM I`d ever driven. Something that only those who did the job would understand. A shed full of buses that all looked the same yet one would stand out as a cracking good bus to drive. And in the days before RM 1563 which became our garage Show Bus, RM 1629 was as near perfect to drive as an RM could be. I was forever asking to have it changed onto my running line and for about three months before it went for overhaul I drove it more than any other RM.

So, to that post a couple of years ago as regards the dent I put in the cab ceiling to try to prove a point about buses changing identity. If you sit in the cab the dent would be roughly at a point above your right ear. Remember it was done with a centre punch so it`s only a tiny dent but it`s a dent that logically shouldn`t be on an RM cab ceiling. If your brother runs his fingers along that part of the ceiling he`ll find it...

When the bus came back from overhaul in March 1980 it had become RM 1670 and it couldn`t have been more different to how it had been as RM 1629. The way it drove made it nothing special at all. The only significant collision damage I ever had when driving an RM involved 1670 outside Green Park tube one morning. Stationary on the eastbound stop with many people to alight and board, a beat up old Commer van ran into the rear offside. The driver said I`d rolled back into him! Witnesses said he`d been reading a map and saw the bus at the last moment causing him to swerve which is how the staircase panels took the impact. My Conductress was on the stairs at the point where the panels suddenly came inward. Shaken but not stirred!

RM 1670 became one of the casualties of the mass RM withdrawal programme of September 1982. It went in a convoy of seven RMs from Mortlake to storage at Ensign`s premises only to be fetched out of there (along with all the others sent there) the following week. After storage at the old AEC site it went for further use as a hospitality bus - I think for a drinks company. Somewhere I`ve got the records of whom and when. How it got to NZ I`m not sure without looking back through bits and pieces I`ve kept but I am fairly sure it`s one of only six genuine Mortlake RMs to survive - the others being 1403, 1549, 1563, 1654 and 1752. 1549 and 1752 being overseas and questionable. I`ve got some colour slides of 1670 and 1629 as it was. Can`t get to them at present but when I do I`ll be pleased to let you have copies to send to your brother. Funny it should have ended up in Christchurch NZ. I`ve ended up on the boundary of Bournemouth and Christchurch!

This is one of the most interesting Routemaster threads I've ever read. Thanks a bundle to Neil G, Brian W, and Jack N for their input. The full story of Mortlake Garage and the Routemasters would make a superb book.

My bus number (if any): RM1001

Hi again Neil G. Thank you for such an informative response to my query. I've passed this all onto my brother in NZ and I expect he'll be in touch with you by email to explore other elements of RM1670's past in due course. They are busy bringing her up to full service use standard again so she can commence touring the streets of Christchurch before the end of the year. You were right about the engine change also BTW. No doubt you'll get to learn more about this soon also. Thanks again Neil - very much appreciated. Kind regards, Trev.

My bus number (if any): RM 1670

Between March 73 and November 73, My own AEC engine RM (1069) spent nine months at Mortlake as a non standard type.

Dean

My bus number (if any): RM1069, RMLs 889, 2722, 2428, 2429, RMC1487

Dean. You ought to consider doing a body swap with Mike Smith's bus, then he could have the original body back on his RM 1001.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960 RMC 1458 RM 1585 and several RTs

Thanks Niel for your reply to my brother Trev. This was a great bit of history to find regarding RM1670. You'll be pleased to know that the small dent is still there after all these years. I had to laugh at your comment on how it was nothing special to drive upon it's return. As it was my first ever double decker bus to drive 2 weeks ago I can honestly say it has been returned to the status of "Special bus to drive". Even though I did have to stop in the middle of a busy one way street as it was not going to fit under a street direction sign! (We figure the sign had sunk a little with the recent earthquakes, it is only 15cm higher than any other vehicle on a NZ road, with this sign it was going to make all the difference) Keep an eye out on our website and you will soon see it returned to its former glory. Thanks again

My bus number (if any): RM1670

Our RM 912; (B 732) an AEC, spent some time at Mortlake in the guise of RM 783 when it was the Esso Uniflow allover advert bus.

My bus number (if any): RM 912 & RML 2455

Hi, not quite on subject. But my grandfather Percy Mason was employed at Mortlake Garage. He was a coach builder. He was employed from 1919 to 1957, and lived in Avondale Road from at least 1922. I well remember visiting the garage with him.
I just wondered if there were any sites with pictures of the garage, or does anyone have any ideas if staff records are still in existance?
As keepsakes I have a 'retirement scroll', and also a couple of brass moneyboxes. These are reputidly converted from lamps carried on horse drawn buses.
Cheers John

I have found this thread of great interest. As the owner of one of the few Mortlake RM's to suvive and the sole suving open top RM, I would love to hear from anyone who has any photos, information etc of RM1403 in service at Mortlake and any gossop on her that any one may have.

Does anyone know if 1403 has the pressure system as the heating is excellent, even upstairs on a cold December day. She was in service in Bedfordshire today and upstairs the heating was working very well.

David
david@rm1403.co.uk

My bus number (if any): RM1403

Hi David

Speaking as someone who drove RM 1403 many, many times whilst at Mortlake and subsequently Stamford Brook, I can tell you that it was always a very nice bus to drive. One of those that you would always be pleased to find allocated to your duty.

I have lots of photo`s of RM 1403 taken at M and V. And I`m sure that I have a photo taken at Aldenham of a bus (can`t recall which one) parked outside awaiting its place in the accident shop and on the grass next to it is the roof of 1403 days after it was converted to open top! I would love to begin uploading onto pc just some of the several thousand slides I have but I just don`t have the time....

As regards the bus heating, I`m surprised that you have asked if anyone knows if 1403 still has the special pressure filler system. If it`s still got the EN 52 Leyland engine it had when it was withdrawn then it should have the special adaptor and it should be quite obvious next to the header tank. Designed to work in conjunction with an overhead supply in Mortlake Garage it was why Mortlake buses always stayed there.
Logically there`s no reason why it wouldn`t be possible to build the set up required to continue using it - apart from it being a bit extravagant for one bus!

Couldn`t help thinking just how weird it is that you have an open top RM with really good upper deck heaters. I knew that Mortlake buses were a bit special but that`s quite some attribute!

Hi Neil

Many thanks for the response.

Where do you live?, If you are in the area and would like a drive of 1403 then please contact me. I hope you find time to sort some pics out and I prefer to have photos which i would be more than happy to pay for prints. The roof off 1403 went on 254 I understand.

Regards

David

My bus number (if any): RM1403

seems to be a lot of action on this thread - wondering if anyone can help me with this issue. Our gearbox keeps blowing transmission fluid out the top, it seems to be coming from the dipstick for the fluid check,is this common? what should we do to stop this?

My bus number (if any): RM1670

I'd also be really appreciative of a place to track down some spare parts for the RM.

My bus number (if any): RM1670

Piston seal leaking or box just over-full. Possibly the dipstick doesn't fit its tube snugly. Sealing washer on filler plug leaking. Lid gasket leaking. Porous casting.

Thanks Roy, Was there something that held the dipstick down? We opened the inspection cover while the vehicle was driving the other day and the dipstick popped up and spurted out some oil. Did the dipstick ever have a rubber seal at the top to hold it in place? Our dipstick appears to just sit in there. Thanks for your help.

My bus number (if any): RM1670

Hi Chris. Join the Routemaster Association as we are in the process of remanufacturing spares and gaining spares all the time. Just ask what you are looking for and we can direct you in the right direction if we dont have the item.
David

My bus number (if any): RM1403

Pretty much as what Roy has said. The filler cap has a small breather hole in it, this could be blocked.
The seals that are on the operating pistons that Roy mentioned may well need changing, a quick test to see if they are leaking is to start bus up build up the air system until it unloads switch engine off and push the arens cable back in. Take the filler cap off the top of the gear box and have an assistant operate the gears, listen for hissing and gurgling from inside the gearbox.
If you still have the original type of automatic set up however you will need a bypass plug or a piece of LT kit called a box of lights which allows all gears can be engaged otherwise you can only select 1st 2nd & reverse. Someone told me a little while ago that the seals are becoming hard to obtain now, so maybe getting some made for owners may be an idea. Hope this helps. Regards, Paul Almeroth.

My bus number (if any): MD 60, MD 99, Hull 411

Thanks. I have cleaned out the breather holes on the large filler cap and the other bung with a breather hole in it. It is now firing oil out of these holes and yes it makes a gurgling hissing sound. So looks like Piston seals.
David we are keen to join the Routemaster association, and we need to get onto making an international money transfer to join.

My bus number (if any): RM1670

can pay by paypal as that is cheaper for you. send a money transfer to routemasterassociation@ntlworld.com the over seas amount is

£28 with 1 magazine per quarter
£40 with 2 magazine per quarter
£52 with 3 magazine per quarter
Any problems email me.

David

My bus number (if any): RM1403

Hi Chris - I think you need to deal with the piston seals quickly before damage occurs. I've just had a £1200 repair bill as a consequence of an undiagnosed seized third gear piston causing substantial damage. I agree with Paul that it would be helpful if the Association could secure a stock of piston seals and mentioned it in my renewal application to David.

PS A very happy 2011 to everyone!!

My bus number (if any): RML2302

hi all,
Just to support Brian's comments about piston seals . I also think it would be a good idea if a stock of these items could be built up .

mark 2391

My bus number (if any): RML2391

Just for info, Routemaster Gearbox piston seal kits and gaskets are now in stock from the Association

Rob

http://gallerybob.fotoblog.co.uk/p68628950.html

My bus number (if any): RM13