Phil Jones, a professional truck driver, recently commented that 45 mph was too slow for motorways and suggested that vehicles that travel at this speed should be banned from using them.

I know someone who with a van towing a trailer at 35mph who was escorted off a motorway by the police.

I tend to cruise with RM471 and RM2213 at 40 mph on motorways, dual and single cariageways. RM471 is happy at 45mph as it has an RMC diff.

The only problem I am aware of is causing congestion on single carriageways, even though HGVs are restricted to 40mph on thses roads. I pull over from time to time out of courtesy to the other road users though lorries don't do this.

I wonder what the law is and what advice and experiences other RM owners have.

My bus number (if any): RM471 & RM 2213

I can only relate our experiences in France Chris, we avoid motorways with long hills if possible due to the dangers of low speed, although a lot of our motorways are only two lanes and so we present more of an obstacle to faster traffic and lorries wanting to pass. However, I don’t believe that an RM bus with a much better incline speed than many HGVs is any more a danger on a motorway than an HGV. On many sections of the UK Motorway system like Wrotham Hill on the M20 for example HGVs are reduced to a crawl, so should they also be banned from the road?

Fortunately here in France a lot of motorways have a slow vehicle lane on inclines, both up and down to take us out of the main traffic, however, there are many towns that HGVs are banned from traversing and so must use the Autoroutes around these towns so there is no choice.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Chris,
In the highway code there is no specific mention of a minimum speed although it does say "certain slow vehicles are prohibited" with reference to various laws etc but no details of which vehicles . I would assume it would be such vehicles like tractors/farm equipment or oversize vehicles etc.
The biggest problem is the attitude of drivers' using the motorways , I would suggest that most drivers know the speed limit is 70mph but then drive on the motorway as if 70mph is the minimum speed ! Anything slower than 70 mph just shouldn't be on the motorway !!! After driving for a while on a motorway its all too easy to fall in the trap that everything is cruising nearer 70 and when a slower vehicle is suddenly in front of you before you know it the brakes are slammed on and creates havoc to all other users due to not realising whats in front , simple observation ? Unfortunately , accidents do happen , rear end shunts are a daily occurence lots of reasons add up to an accident , weather , tiredness , concentration , wrong place at the wrong time , attitude , road rage etc . As for driving a routemaster on the motorway I've done it but i'm not relaxed doing it and i try to avoid busy times if possible . Its probably a good idea to have a warning flashing amber light at the rear to give a warning . Probably best to try and use "A" roads and pull over now and again to let traffic by.
Mark

My bus number (if any): rml2391

This subject is extremely relevant, and thought does need to be given to it if we intend to take a 40 year old vehicle onto the motorway system. The original comment coming from a professional driver, indicates a level of thinking that clearly exists amongst many who would wish to see slower moving vehicles banned from motorways. However at what speed this thinking would be satisfied is open to an interesting debate. My own personal opinion is that 40mph is a satisfactory speed on a motorway for a Routemaster, but if the vehicle is capable of cruising at say 45mph, then do so. The main issue of this subject is the lack of observational skills exhibited by many drivers, both of large and small vehicles. Recently we have had 2 instances of rear end collisions involving LGV's on the uk motorway network, in both cases the LGV's collided with stationary traffic in lane 1. In one case the driver was British and in the other Portugese, both accidents caused multiple deaths. These accidents were completely avoidable, and caused by poor observational skill. The density of traffic using the motorway system, requires that all drivers concentrate on what is going on around them at all times. A school of thought brings into question the use of cruise control on many vehicles, not that it is in itself a danger, but that it can induce a level of boredom culminating in complacency. I agree with Chris about pulling over on single carriageway roads, in order to allow faster moving traffic to overtake. The speed limit for LGV's as Chris mentions is 40mph, so even though the limit for a coach for instance may be 50mph, it is not dangerously slow for a Routemaster to travel at 40mph. Brian mentions France, and here with mostly 2 lane motorways it is more of an issue where safety is concerned, not least for the reason that higher average speeds need to be taken into account. I cannot agree with Mark about having a flashing amber light showing at the rear to give warning, this is for vehicles of very low speed, such as vehicular mechanical aids or of ' convoy exceptional ' formation.
In conclusion it is every drivers responsibility to correctly observe what is happening all around them at all times, and not blame a slower moving vehicle when they collide with the rear of the vehicle in front of them.

Ed

My bus number (if any): RML2335

Ed,
I agree that we shouldn't need to put flashing lights at the rear , unfortunately accidents do happen because of lack of observation and catching up the slow moving vehicle in front . At least the flashing light might just alert the driver behind so he realises there might be a reason for the light and see you're not doing 70 like he is . I think RML2719 is an example of what can happen , I would try to avoid that at all costs . How another driver cannot see a big red bus moving slow in front I'll never know ! The motorway isn't the safest place for a slow vehicle , but sometimes the alternatives are not practicable

My bus number (if any): rml2391

An interesting and well reasoned post Ed, but AFAIK, the speed limit for an HGV or LGV is actually 60mph,or 90kph here and so they do have quite a margin over a bus at 40mph. I went down the A20 to Toulouse a time back and got left arm ache flashing the LGVs as they passed to indicate they were past me and we do 60 - 65kph!

In France we have to have larger lamps than those fitted to the original RMs and RTs and lamps at the extremes, also on the roof dome back and front as well. The modified RM lights are OK to use.

For “collection” or vintage buses its not mandatory to have additional lights but the use of such vehicles is restricted by area, so for operational use and for safety we changed the lights to modern specification ones and we often run with the saloon lights on at night, which I think is the danger period. Both the fatalities in the UK that Ed mentioned I believe happened in darkness.

There are some bus owners in the UK who choose not to enhance their lights but although not on RMs, the single small red light of the RT and RF classes really does need enhancement (in operation it had saloon lights, a platform light and blinds lit up) so if a flashing amber beacon in the rear window prevents a rear end accident then I see no reason not to have one, they are quite common on the continent for all sorts of loads, slow, high, wide etc.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Hiya all

The law is quite simple

Any vehicle using the Motorway system in GB must be capable of maintaining a speed of 25 mph on the flat.

There are also various places where MINIMUM speed limits apply in GB, usually 10 mph.

Amber beacons are for STGO loads only and may not be used for ordinary vehicles travelling at more than 25 mph.

Traffic Police have no authority to ask any vehicle to leave the motorway if it is maintaining a constant speed of more than 25 mph and is roadworthy.


The motorway police patrols would be better employed ensuring that the 'So Called' professional truck drivers kept a safe distance between each other instead of the usual 30 to 40 feet at full speed and that the national speed limits were observed by all motorway users.

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): RML2330 etc.

It is interesting the difference in EU countries attitudes to road safety measures with the differing use of flashing amber beacons in the UK to that of most of the continent where they are fairly common to see on many loads of various sizes and speeds.
Another anomaly is the use of rear fog lights. These are totally banned in France for use other than in fog and falling snow, they cannot be used in heavy rain and spray although a lot of foreign drivers do so, the thinking is that they look like brake lights being applied and could cause an accident if the vehicle behind also brakes. Recently the use and carriage of Hi-Vi vests and warning triangles in cars has been made compulsory in France, it has been like this in Spain for some time, I notice that a lot of HGV and bus drivers in the UK wear them but I wonder if they will become compulsory in the UK to carry Hi-Vis for use in emergencies on unlit roads.

Sorry if this is getting a bit off topic

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Claire! So you think its ok to do 30mph on the Motorway then do you & you think its safe do you ?
I think not
why is it that some Routemasters can go faster than others ?
Wot about The RML doing 60mph on the M4 i guess they cant all do that speed ?
All Routemasters need to go as fast as 45mph to be safe on the motorway or they may end up looking like RML2719 with a truck stuck up its back end.
Phil Jones

Phil,
A bog standard RM can expect to do around 42 mph ish , some a bit less and some a little more . Its said that with a bit of 'tweaking' here and there they can be stretched to 45ish . The ones that go faster have been fitted with a higher speed diff , hence the higher speeds , unfortunately these are the minority . Getting a higher speed diff is like trying to find rocking horse do do and very costly if one does come up . I think most of us would have one if we could but it comes down to cost and getting them made.
Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

Thanks Mark For the info i have a better understanding of the routemaster now.
There are two Routemasters i often see on the M4 one at Bristol is a Rm he is never faster than 35MPH and the 2nd is a very smart RML at Newport if i am going up hill at 55MPH it passes me as if i am standing still it must be a RML GTI.
Phil Jones

Phil ,
RML GTi , nice description ! would be interesting to know what's under its bonnet and the rear axle . Do you know the id of it ? Its certainly being pushed to the limit at the speed you describe
Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

Mark
This RML is RML2583 the owner had a driver who would take it out once a week to advertise now he has another diver who will stick 50MPH.
RML2583 is an ex London General/Central it was used for private hire work by London General/Central going out of London so for the need for it to go Faster it had a high speed diff fitted also it has a Cummins Engine.
Phil.

I owned RM2116 for 20 years and we traveled all over the uk including Scotland and we always used motorways
RMs will plod at 40/42mph quite easy on motorways
we had no problem with 2116 and some owners will remember that we went all over on a AEC engine infact
it clears all the muck out of the exhaust etc

My bus number (if any): EX RM2116 owner

Brian/
Sorry to respond to your reply so late.
In case of any confusion the speed limit for LGV's is the same under EC rules throughout the community where motorway/autoroute is concerned. EC rules require the use of speed limiters to be fitted to both LGV/PSV(not Routemasters) 90kph/56mph & 100kph/62mph respectively. The essential difference between the UK and France is of course that the latter has a mostly 2 lane motorway system. This makes it even more essential for everyone to be focussed on observation, when the mix of slower moving large vehicles vie with much faster traffic travelling at 130kph/81mph or even higher as we know they frequently do. Fortunately 2335 will run without stress at 40-45mph, so on single carriageway roads here with a limit of 40mph for LGV's, it is a perfectly acceptable speed for a Routemaster, without holding other road users up. The subject of rear light efficiency on the RML refurb is worth a mention. I was travelling up the M5 at night with 2335 and a colleague passed me with a coach at 100kph/62mph. When we met up later he did inform me that the rear lights on the bus did not seem to be very bright, though the lights were clean. With this in mind perhaps a conversion to LED's may be a good option. I wonder if anyone else has had this brought to their attention.

Ed

My bus number (if any): RML2335

To increase visibility at night switch on your saloon and indicator lights. As these buses are fitted with alternators there will be NO battery drain.

Claire

My bus number (if any): RML2330 etc.

Does anyone know if there is a conversion available from bulbs to Led's for a refurb RML ? I do recall seeing an article somewhere ?

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

I was looking around the Net and i found this website it looks like RML2583 is going back to work later this year lets hope they change the horrid Hopper windows.
The site is called LONDON BUS 4 HIRE .
Address is below

www.londonbus4hire.com

Roy

Hi All, I'm half owner of 308 bassed in swansea and she loves to strut her stuff on the M$ and all the A roads in South Wales (including the steep valley's). I never go at more than 40mph with original diff and AEC engine. I put a notice in the rear window appologising for low speed and pull over regularly for other behicles to pass on single lane roads. At night the indicatior lights are on for added sighting.

The biggest problem is people slowing down or pulling in front to take pictures! I love the smiling look on everyone's face when they realise what she is, and the thumbs up and waves really do make a trip out complete!!!

My bus number (if any): RM308

Hi Duanne / welsh wizzard ,
40 MPH ! Didn't your max speed used to be 25mph on those rusty coupling trains in the valleys ? Take it easy

Regards

Mark

My bus number (if any): RML2391

I don't quite know why this thread from 2009 suddenly popped up at the top of the list of threads today, but it makes interesting reading.

To try to bring things up to date we have to look at several matters.

If you look on the DVLA brake testing data sheet the RM/RML has a design speed of 50mph. I've not had an RMA to test so they may have a different brake code with a higher design speed; certainly the weight will be different, especially with a trailer on the back and the bigger engine.

The speed for lorries was raised to 50mph on A roads a couple of years ago. According to reports this move has raised traffic speeds slightly and has reduced the accident rates on A roads. Motorway speed are as Brian Watkinson says 60 mph in the UK but lorries have to have a speed limiter set at 56 mph/90kmh. The maximum speed for coaches post 1978 is 65 mph. Oddly enough pre 1978 coaches are allowed to do 70 and not be fitted with speed limiters or seat belts. I used to own a semi-auto Reliance with the 760 engine that would do 70.

Back to RMs, our RML2532 will quite happily do 85kmh on motorways with the standard diff, Cummins engine and good transmission and brakes. It is capable of doing well over that in"silent fifth" as we used to call it, but I wouldn't do that with passengers on! It was quite a firm ride at the speed it was being testing it at don a long hill on a motorway somewhere in south east England. What kills RMs at speed is propshaft vibration, that can cause gearbox and diff failure and even engine bearing failure or a broken crankshaft. The centre prop bearings on the RMLs are prone to vibration as the rubber mounting perish. So any sugn of vibration on your bus, don't drive it flat out!

As for rear lights, the C&U Regulations used to be a rear light each side of the centre line of no more than 8 watts. I've been pulled a couple of times driving more modern (1980s) coaches for having rear lights that weren't bright enough. when i pointed out the law to the officer there wasn't much that could be said. Pre 1968 buses used as PSVs still only need one tail light not exceeding 8 watts to the off side of the centre line.

There is no minimum speed on motorways unless otherwise indicated and as has been pointed out the police can't tell you to get off the motorway for going too slow. Many years ago (1971) I got volunteered to steer a 1928 Foden steam lorry up the M1 with a tram body on the bacl, beign towed by a 1947 Scammell. The steam wagon had a couple of "roadworks" red paraffin lamps. The police didn't like it but when the tow truck driver suggested they escort us to Derby as 33 mph they politely declined and let us carry on.

The answer is if your bus is well maintained, drive at a speed at which you and the bus feel comfortable with due regard to the road conditions; keep your brakes and prop shafts in good condition and make sure your lights meet the regulations. If someone runs into you, it's their fault, not yours. If they're driving without due care and attention they're bund to run into something anyway.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

It came up as a spammer posted on it Roy, and the post was deleted.

Thanks. I'm glad someone is awake!

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I always worry when out with 308 on her own... one small red light to most blind drivers!

Most of the time they are out as a pair and we always have 308 in front as 66 has two flashing orange top lights and a nice steel girder on rear😀. We stick to 40 mph when we can and pull over regularly when on minor roads.

My bus number (if any): RM 66 & 308

The C&U regulations were amended in 1968 to make it compulsory for buses built after a certain date in 1968 to show 2 red lights to the rear of the vehicle as near the outside edges the design of the vehicle would allow. From that date they also needed 2 stop lights.

It seems this was changed following the cessation of building rear entrance front engine buses, the RMs presumably being the last of that classic design.

I wonder why 308 (presumably RM308) only has one tail light? i/f it is RT308 it only needs one, plus the rear platform light must be illuminated with the tail light. But then RF308 only needs one tail light...don't blame me I'm only the messenger.

I can't remember if I mentioned this above, but the Belgian government is planning to introduce a minimum speed of 80km'h on their motorways. Any vehicle not capable of achieving 80kmh on a straight level road must not be used on motorways in Belgium. But no idea when the law is to be implemented if at all.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I think Duane is thinking about the RM brake light....
We do not use the platform light on our buses, it is, I am told, an offence to show a white light to the rear in France. We also have two rear lights at the back at the extremes of the vehicle. We could use red bulbs in the platform light of course...

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RM 1585, RML 2667 and several RTs

You might get the wrong sort of lady passengers if you had a red light on the platform over here! :)

It is an offence in the UK to display a white light to the rear of a public service vehicle except any interior light or destination display. Reversing lights if fitted must be capable of only being illuminated with reverse gear selected.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

an easy way to fit twin brake lights on the back of an RM is to remove the SBC lamp holed and replaces it with an offset pin twin filament MBC fitting, just make sure you keep the return wire insulated from the bodywork. Obviously you'll have to run additional wired from the central stop light to the outer lamps. The central lamp must remain operative or removed entirely.

My bus number (if any): RML2532