Does anyone know the brand/type of ORDINARY blind pop rivets (not Monel or Avdel etc)used by the companies for things such as the interior beading under the windows in refurb buses please. They seem to have a more substantial head than the ones I have - almost a pan head, although the rivets described as that on the web don't look as if they have a pan head to me .....

My bus number (if any): RML2302

Brian
Those rivets are not normal nor original, they have a much larger head that the original ones which were 3/16" tucker pop rivets which are now made by one of the companies (Monel I believe) that you named. We use those large head ones at the garage they are softer than the originals but I don't know the brand, I'll find out if you want that type.
Regards

Brian

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Yes please as well Brian

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): RML2330 etc.

That would be great thanks Brian - hope we are talking about the same thing! They are about 10mm in diameter

Brian/Claire
I'm talking about the large aluminium type flattish headed rivets used on the interior moulding of the refurbished RMLs like this eBay item 120330220017l
These are nothing like the original ones used for this purpose in either 3/16 or 5/32 sizes on all the pop rivets on the RMs both interior and exterior they look like this eBay item 120299041208 but were not aluminium. The original tucker pop type now Emhart, are still available as far as I know from http://www.carona-reuter.com/closedend.html

Regards

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Hmm ... it just goes to show how different all our buses are! The rivets I am talking about are not exactly like either of the ones shown, although more like the second one. Maybe I'm deluding myself but the head seems to be thicker than the dome rivet and not tapered at the edge,ie vertical edges curved at the top. My bus is a refurb RML refurbished by South Yorkshire Transport.

I can't get any piccy of ebay No. 120299041208 bat at 10mm dia they seem to be what I call large headed rivits and we usually use these for fixing No. plates. I have never found a LT application for them on a RM but did come across them on the post 93 refurbs being used to assist the moquette glue to hold the rear near and off side interior bulkhead moquette covering to the panel lip that is normally hidden beneath the ends of the L/S long seat cushions.

As with all the 'free for all cheap as possible' practices and bodges that came with the end of LT
operation of these buses in 93 thase large headed rivits, along with 'Peel back' rivits would have started to become common place with the new bus owners or lease holders.

I can get these types from W H Clark of Hackney Road E2 old established Cart, Coach and Van Ironmongers according to their blue enamelled sign and they still close for dinner at lunch time!

Regards

Claire

My bus number (if any): RML2330 etc.

Thanks for that info Claire - I like the sound of Clarks' shop! I'm sure it's not the large head rivets I'm talking about. As I said, the head is about the same size as the dome rivets and probably about the same thickness in the centre but flatter and less dome shaped. This is really evidenced by the fact that in some cases where the BS Milk White paint has rubbed off it has only rubbed off the edges.

I went to have a look at the rivets on my bus this afternoon and I think I should revise my description - they're actually more mushroom shaped with a virtually flat top. They are particularly evident on the aluminium capping round the entrance to the lower saloon

The rivets we have found all over our RML 2667 (ex First) particularly where there should have been set screws on the strap plates and mouldings are large flat headed aluminium rivets of the type Claire describes. All the waist mouldings under the windows top and bottom deck are also fixed with similar sized large flat head rivets, the type as Claire described usually used for number plates so that is what I thought Brian wanted.

Those soft rivets were used for a purpose, they are long and spread out when used and would fill a largish hole in the pillar or rail. The very reason why LT did not use pop rivets below the waist was the very real risk of giant holes developing in the pillars due to rivets being drilled out over and over again, but the refurbishments seem to have ignored this issue and a lot of the RMLs have these rivets all over the place. If you are reverting to original rexine covered mouldings the alloy dome headed rivets are the ones to use. These here look very much like the originals. http://www.shop4fasteners.co.uk/acatalog/Dome_Head_Blind_Rivets.asp

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Thanks for all your help Brian and Claire - life would be much easier if I could just show you what I am talking about! A trip to la belle France is very appealing!

Brian take a picture if you can. If you are still on "talk21" I have your E mail address so I can E mail you and give your our E mail addresses for sending pictures.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Hi Brian - will have a go - I am still at the talk21 address

My bus number (if any): RML2302

I think I've discovered what I was talking about following the help from Brian and Claire and it may be of interest to others who like me are are not "retro-ing" their buses. It is the Gesipa Polygrip rivet - see http://shop.comdir.co.uk/Products.aspx?intGroupID=917&strProductID=xqmqgmltvw&strWebTemplate=C.

They seem to have some good features for our purposes -"GESIPA PolyGrip rivets feature a wide grip range, enabling a single PolyGrip to replace up to three different lengths of standard blind rivets. PolyGrip rivets expand radially, filling the application hole, resulting in tighter joints and improved sealing. Add to this PolyGrip's locked mandrel core and you have a weather tight rattle resistant fastener. Improved material support is provided by the PolyGrip's larger blind side head formation." Can anyone confirm that these are actually the ones used on refurb buses?

As a matter of interest Brian, if pop rivets are removed in the prescribed LT method, rather than the way that most people do it, i.e. just drilling them out and pushing through with a drill, the holes do not get any bigger.

The official method on the planning method sheet was to get an awl and hit the centre of the rivet to remove the pin if it was still in the rivet or had broken off. Then with a 5/32” or 3/16” drill as appropriate or metric equivalent, drill off only the head. If the rivet spins turn the drill bit at a slight angle to trap it but again only remove the head. When the head has been removed take a 5/32” or 3/16” punch and punch the rivet through.

This method was used by many coachmakers and it was the norm at Aldenham in the Accident Shop and High Bay, you might have noticed the bodies of pop rivets piled up in rails and behind panels if you have taken off mouldings or panels. It is actually quicker to use this method rather than just ramming the drill through the rivert and into the hole, it does not make the holes bigger and rivets go back in without having to be re-drilled.

My bus number (if any): RTL 960, RML 2667, RM 1585, RMC 1458 and 14 RTs

Very interesting Brian - there was certainly an accumulation of rivet bodies in the rear destination blind box, stopping it from closing properly by lodging in the hinge!