Gogouyave.com's Forum

Views expressed on this website are those of the person or persons posting the message and does not reflect the views of Gogouyave.com

Rules Of this Talk Shop

  1. Do not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, obscene, vulgar, hateful, abusive, threatening, or an invasion of a person's privacy, or otherwise a violation of any laws.

  2. Finally, the owners of this web site reserve the right to remove any messages posted, for legal reasons. 

So please! please! try to keep your posts clean. Webmaster

Gouyave Talk
Start a New Topic 
View Entire Thread
Re: On the Slave Ship

Like you, Mya, I was at first flabbergasted by Vernon Louison's question, but then after re-reading it, I believe his point was more directly aimed at the poster's intent rather than to dismiss slavery's impact. In my previous post, my question was likewise pointedly aimed solely at the poster to find out if there was something else he wanted to say. Other than their historic value, I've been wondering if there are other meanings or a hidden agenda in all of his posts. I believe that's Vernon's point too.
But the Gouyaveman has a tongue and talent to express, clarify and defend himself far better than I could even try. So let him do the talking himself.

Back to your post though. I could not agree with your analysis more. It is right on point. As a matter of fact, I have posted several times where I questioned the value of Christianity to Black people. You could not have done a better job in your summary of the very essence of the argument when you said >>Christianity and THOSE WHO IMPOSE IT ON US (my caps for emphasis) emphasize that we should forgive and forget yet THE SAME CHURCH WAS THE ONE THAT SANCTIONED the system.<<
Once I started understanding that simple but fundamental truth ever since my high-school days, I began to erase the concept of Christianity and religion in general from my mind. However I'll continue to hang on to and defend my firm belief in a power far greater than mankind could ever comprehend. That I call spirituality. Try rationalizing this to those hardcore, as well as the not so hardcore Black Christians!!

I'll die arguing that the Jews would have manufactured their own religion if they had to, rather than accept any of the precepts of the Pharaohs' religion. I'm convinced that their Judaism gave them vision in order for them to remain focused on what was meaningful to them which is their freedom and distinctness. In a funny way, the holocaust reinforced their steeliness that they are a different people and that their people should be taught that lesson from inception. Small wonder that their slogan is "Never Again" and why in general they as a people are doing so very well!

That's the lesson we Black people are yet to learn.

Re: On the Slave Ship

I would not be so bold as to post to someone’s intent and as such I addressed the topic for what it is. I could not speak to anyone’s intent and so I can only forward my perspective on the historical event in this case as it is one that I believe is of dire importance to us as a Grenadian, and Caribbean people as a whole. I try not to personalize but to attempt to contribute to the debate hoping that others with knowledge can impart with the intention of building a better understanding among our people.

You know I was following an issue on the Spiceislandertalkshop.com about a Canadian couple that own lands in Bathway and is creating a real problem for native Grenadians going to the beach. Now as far back as I can remember, Bathway is a Grenadian retreat used by groups and individuals alike when there is a National holiday or on special occasions, but now if you go there and play your music the Police will likely accost you. It is said that the couple would call the police, they seem to be on their speed dial, who would within minutes arrive and threaten the people on the beach demanding that they turn off the music or be kicked off the area or even arrested. The complaints are that they disturbing the guest in their guesthouse build on the beach.

Now my view in light of the conversation is that here we have a couple that have no problem suppressing a majority in their own land intimidating them and corralling them with no difficulty whatsoever. They use the very system that is there to protect our people to suppress us. A perfect example of a minority controlling a majority by intimidation a lesson learned and still practiced from slavery.
Now if the couple were Grenadians returning home in the same situation attempting to do the same thing they would have been facing a much different reacting from the beach goers and people in the area. The atrocities committed against the slaves and continue to be committed against black people has the ultimate goal of intimidation, suppression, repression and control. If we become more aware of our history not just as we say “book knowledge” but a deep understanding and appreciation of events I am sure we will be able with wisdom to move forward as a people. I know I may be introducing a new topic here, one of philosophy with concepts of knowledge, understanding and Wisdom but I think it is apropos. To many times in our education the teachers teach per curriculum and not a true understanding, and to interject here the same applies to the concepts of Christianity.

I would like to propose that we expand this topic, void of personalities and judgments, to have a deeper understanding and enlightenment of events that have shaped our thinking with an ultimate goal to change the perspective, which may affect a change on the course of things.

Knowledge without understanding and understanding without wisdom, hmmmmmmm

Re: On the Slave Ship

>>I would like to propose that we expand this topic, void of personalities and judgments, to have a deeper understanding and enlightenment of events that have shaped our thinking with an ultimate goal to change the perspective, which may affect a change on the course of things.<<

I wanted to do that a long time ago but thought that it wouldn't generate the VERY SERIOUS NON-EMOTIONAL responses that I was hoping for.

It seems that the time has finally arrived. So Mya, go ahead and start it, and I'm sure you would have a least four serious participants including yourself.

Re: On the Slave Ship

I would just like to bring to your attention that the people who are claiming holocaust and have occupied Palestine for the last 67 years are not the descendants of the Israelite people who were enslave by the Pharaohs of Egypt for four and a half centuries. They are Eastern Europeans who lived between the Caspian and the Black sea. They are were a war like people (and still is) who use to terrorize their the neighboring countries around them. They were known the Khazar people from Eastern Europe. When they found themselves caught between the the christian and Muslem Armies, they felt it would be to they detriment to align themselves with either of them, So they declare themselves Jews. Before they took over Palestine the real Jews and Muslems lived in perfect harmony.

Just Google the The Khazar and read the real story of how they became Jews and all the trouble they cause in the world.

Re: On the Slave Ship

Thank you Zafar for bringing this information to the board.

But whether you believe in the Bible or not, no one can deny that there are great principles that can be learnt from the Bible. Many of us are not of the Confucian faith, but I'll bet that we all admire and appreciate Confucius simple dictum which is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Indeed this principle is so basic to human relationships that many are still convinced that it originated with Jesus.

My point is, you may yet find gold even in thrash. Whether present day Jews are fake or not, the lesson of the Israelites in Egypt as told in the Bible is one that all enslaved people should learn from. It is simply that you cannot ACCEPT and BELIEVE in the same guiding principles that was given to you by your master. To do so is to continue to be reinforced that their society and the things that do are right and justified. The story was written for them to have a religious justification to enslave you, and not for you to rise up and live proud and free as all people should! The saving grace is that despite what has been dumped on us Black folks, no matter how much we were battered left right and center, the great Maya Angelou can still remind us "And still I rise!"

Finally here is one to ponder. The West European Christian nations went around the world greedily seeking and plundering wealth. In the process they slaughtered and enslaved anyone who crossed their paths. Yet they are the same ones who Christianized us and want us to believe that it is easier for a camel to go through the eyes of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven!
If the life of poverty is so precious and admirable in the eyes of their Lord, what was and still continues to be their maddening obsession and thirst for wealth? Please help me with that one!

I hope you get my point, Zafar.

Re: On the Slave Ship

Tony... When a person claim faith is a certain religion, I or anyone for that matter should not call them fake, as you seems to be suggesting I did, I certainly did not do that. I was suggesting they are fake Jews,I was merely pointing out that the people of Jewish Holocaust were not descendants of the Israelite who were enslave by the Pharaohs of Egypt. That is all, no more no less. As to their belief in Judaism only God can judge them on that. Judaism is a religion not a race. I hope I have made myself clear now...Thank you.

Tony, you also brought up Confucius and Jesus... I believe them both to be righteous servants of God, The Lord of all the worlds; in other words Prophets.
I do have a problem with the Christianity of today, the one which Mya mention as part of the system that had enslaved out ancestors. I do not believe that their doctrines are the true teachings of Prophet Jesus....Peace be on him. I also believe that the biggest mistake our fore-parents made, was to accept the religion of the slave-masters. Think about it, the slave-masters never give their slave anything that was good. So if their religion was something good that could rise us up into a well unified people, why would they give it to us? Again they kept the economic power, they kept the military power and they kept the political power.
When I look at the world of enslaved and oppressed people, I see on common factor, that is to say; every oppressed people had a religion that was distinctly different from their masters except the Africans. (After 500 years the old Oligarchy is still in control.) Religion was the central pivot which gave the oppressed ones the inner driving spirit to over-come their masters and later in their history become the rulers over their former masters. Examples: the followers of Confucius in China, Zoroaster in Persia, follower of the Buddha, Prophet Jesus Prophet Muhammad...etc. I believe that the people of African Decent in the Caribbean and the Americas will never rise up as a united people to truly control they own destiny until they lose that whitewash version of Jesus teaching they were given a few centuries ago. Take a look at what we have done through our politicians after we got that so call independence. We turned around and gave it right back to them. Look around you and see who own and control all the industries where the real money is. Example: The yachting industry, the insurance industry, the banks the tourist and hotel industry. Etc.
You my people are nothing more than wage slavers right now, thanks to your politicians, but you also have you also have to accept some of the blame as to sat right there and let it happen.
You got to wake up now my people! Because if you don’t, I am giving you only 25-30 more years before they take back the political industry from your hands.

Re: On the Slave Ship

I am not turning the debate around, just making a quick point.

Read Genesis Chapter 32 verses 27-28.

According to The Bible, Isreal is not a country, but the name of a man called, Jacob. Therefore, the Isrealites are descendants of Jacob. The confusion exist because man has changed that course.

Re: On the Slave Ship

The country that is today called Israel, was cut out of Palestinian lands in the the country of Palestine. In other wards it was stolen from the people who had always lived there.This happened in 1948...
But I must warn you, they are coming for our lands now. Already there are many of them all over the Caribbean. some of you might have run into them in Grenada They are young Israeli couples between the age of 25-30. They are birthing children in all the islands who will be our future masters. Because on the other hand they are grabbing the economy. The Zionist objective is to rule the world. This program is state of Israel sponsored. over the years you will see a lot more coming in...We better wake up People.

Re: On the Slave Ship

>>I also believe that the biggest mistake our fore-parents made, was to accept the religion of the slave-masters.<<

>>every oppressed people had a religion that was distinctly different from their masters except the Africans.<<

Zafar, you and I are saying the same thing. Those two above quotes of yours have been the basis for my argument against the Christianity that the masters gave to the enslaved. If it means inventing a completely different version, or even a different religion altogether, so be it. Whichever way it turns out, it must reflect the aspirations and lifestyles of a people who have been longing to be free.

Re: On the Slave Ship


I think you had misinterpreted the intention of my addendum to the questions Tony had asked in my reply to him.

It was not in any way meant to diminish the importance of Kenrick posting, depicting the flogging of a Slave but more so to some of his previous postings that did not tell us too much in terms of the historical context that lead to the importance of the individuals, place or occurrence during that time in history. Even in their narrative form, there still seems to be a missing link that is devoid of any relevance hence as I too can only see them as providing “intrinsic” or nostalgic value.

MYA, if as we say “ a picture is worth a thousand words”, then your responding post to DNJ on the Slave flogging picture did not fall short in its worth, given its historical importance and surely, notwithstanding the psychological and emotional impact it has on us even today. I would argue that this picture in particular is worth more than one million words as the stockpile of History continues to overflow in abundance and rightfully so, it should.

This, to me is what is lacking in Kenrick’s picture postings and what I had trouble with during my early years in school hence almost driving my beloved Ms. Kathleen Peters (my History Teacher) to seek early admittance to the Mad House with my emphatic denial at times.

She has since forgiven me for my supposed sins, venial as they were……LOL

I suspect though that in Kenrick’s role as a possible Curator (I do not know), he may not be charged with that responsibility and as such, is limited to providing us with only archival information. But be that as it may, it is still enough to generate some conversation; something that I had argued ad-nauseam over the years.

Your posting, hyperbole and all was well taken.

So my friend,(with my usual tongue in cheek again) please do not allow your youth to hold you hostage into believing that it is ok to read only once. You should follow the Carpenter’s principle of measuring twice before cutting as an attestation of confirmation or the “senior principle of synchronizing the eyes and the mind” (as practiced by Tony and others…..lol) of reading twice before rebutting and make A.E. Williams proud of us.


Re: On the Slave Ship

Well said, and a piece of history in itself!

No one expects to be free than by him fighting daily and diligently for it. Depending on those who held you in bondage to set you free is a time and space that is almost impossible to achieve. Especially when the profits are huge. Black people have come a long way but, still they haven't gotten very far with their plight for total freedom. Seff hatred is one of the major culprits that is standing in their way. On the other side, black people is afraid to stand up for their rights. They are holding onto the 'Inferior concepts' of their race, that was taught to them by the Whiteman. They were told that they're just one-fifth of a human being. Can you Imagine that?

When God made man, he did not watch at the color of their skin. For Him, no White nor Black, Indians nor Chinese existed. It was man, and that was all there was. But, somewhere along the time of our existence, black people has turned their backs on the true and living God, and fell for the doctrines of the way their enemies (the Whiteman) wanted them to believe in God. Little did the black people knew, and, and apparently extremely difficult for them to see, that the principles of the Whiteman's teachings of God doesn't and will never work out right for them. They will always be under the spell of Slavery, unless they decide to get serious, and see themselves as a people and not do what others ask them to do. They must remember that they have no answers for anyone else,.except God.

Slavery is a long story, but the great thing about it is that it is very easy to remember it all, once it is being told over, and over again. And, our young people needs it in their daily lives to creste a clear path to trod, a sustainable economic situation and, most of all, love for themselves, their brothers and their sisters.

Again, I'd enjoyed your article. Because, really and truly, slavery isn't a thing of the past; its gets fresher and fresher, as the days comes and goes. It history, our history that's meant to be kept alive.

Re: On the Slave Ship


"Step into my Parlor" said the Spider to the Fly, the cunningness of the Spider notwithstanding....LOL

And may I add an addendum to your question and ask you,

Do you see any 21st. century relevance to these posts vis-a-vis Grenada's benefit -educational or otherwise- other than the intrinsic value, albeit debatable, that you recognize?

Re: On the Slave Ship

I would love to add my tuppence to this post but I am unable to find Gouyaveman submission which appears to have caused the the conflagration. Help please.