Gogouyave.com's Forum

Gouyave Talk
Start a New Topic 
View Entire Thread
Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

I take it that your point is to make us aware of the ugliness of self-aggrandizement and "Avid Arrogance." That being the case why have you allowed yourself to fall victim to your very own admonition? Think seriously about what you wrote:

>> He who does not seek to render full obedience to the Commissioned ones and Messengers of God partakes of arrogance. He who does not pay full attention to the directions of such a one and does not study his writings is arrogant.<<

Aren't you being likewise arrogant in demanding that we follow your beliefs? Those words could easily be exhortations of Isis followers or for that matter avid Christians!! After all, we are just as human as the other guy with the same strengths and weaknesses.

Finally, please pay heed to the wisdom contain in another part of your brilliant writing:

>> You should not partake of arrogance in any respect so that you may escape ruin and you and yours may attain salvation.<<

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

The truth cannot be challenge, nor can it be defeated. You hurled truth at falsehood it will break its back every time. And how do you know when the truth has done its job? People start throwing around insults and attacking your person rather than defend their point of view or challenging what you write.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

It's too bad that you interpreted my response to your previous post as >>throwing around insults and attacking your person rather than defend their point of view or challenging what you write.<<

If that was so, then I apologize for that error. Perhaps the way I expressed my views was in error.

However Zafar, that was NOT my intent. My intent was only to point out that you made the same mistake as what you are asking others not to make. That's where my challenge to your post lies. And you shouldn't blame yourself or for that matter anyone else for resorting to "arrogance." As I see it, it is nothing more than a built-in weakness of our human condition. We all do it at times, some far more than others!

I hope that clarifies it. It's absolutely nothing personal. Heck, I don't even know who you are. It's nothing more than an error I was pointing out to your post; nothing more and nothing less.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

In reading the original post and the subsequent follow ups I see a few issues that might bear some consideration. The issue of Truth, the issue of Arrogance, and the issue of “God’s commissioned ones and messengers”. The question arises as to arrogance shown by one who does not submit fully to the doctrines or message of the ones commissioned by God, without question. The first thing I asked is who can claim such high exalted status and by what authority? Who then is guilty of arrogance is it the one who claims that high status or is it the one who refuses to submit or questions that claim? I guess at this point one sees a possible chicken and the egg scenario. What does the dictionary say is the meaning of arrogant: Dictionary.com
1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.
2. characterized by or proceeding from arrogance, or a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement:
arrogant claims.
3. having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability, etc.; conceited; overbearingly proud ⇒ an arrogant teacher, an arrogant assumption

The issue of TRUTH is as old as time itself and the question is what is TRUTH and can anyone have exclusive possession of the TRUTH? Is truth absolute and can one determine what is in fact truth? Many religions and other teachers are quick to claim a hold on truth and demand unchallenged status by claiming to be of God. Who questions the authority of God right?
The commissioned ones and messengers of God: This is a scary concept as we have seen many, many times people who claim to be Gods messengers or commissioned ones who basically were nothing but con men catering to a gullible audience who were looking for an escape by placing the responsibility of they lives in the hands of someone else with tragic consequences. I recall the Jim Jones case in Guyana, the Davidians case in Waco TX, and a numbers of Gurus and swamis who have invaded Our shores with exalted claims of divinity only to fissile as con men looking to fleece the innocent of their earthly possessions so they can live in obscene wealth right here on earth while the followers are offered rewards in an afterlife. We also have seen a number of televangelists who have made high and might claims and we continue to hear them on the radio and on the televisions 24 hours a day. The latest example is the issue of a Pastor wanting his congregation to provide him with a M$65p personal jet to be able to deliver the message across the Globe.
Where is the ARROGANCE then, is it in the so called commissioned ones/messengers or the ones who refuse to be taken in by them?

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Maya, you could not have reasoned it out any more pointedly! Thank you.

Man's problem is that so-called "commissioned ones" can come from Islam, Christianity and a wide range of other sources. Should we believe that truth comes only from the rabid Christian Right, or does it come from Islam as the followers of Isis claim?
Let's not forget that even within Christianity, Catholics used to torture and burn non-Catholics at the stake for no reason other than their refusal to accept the Christian teachings of the Church. Today we are seeing the same intolerance between the Shiites and the Sunnis within Islam. So who is right? How do we know who is "commissioned" and who is not? That's "the justification" that has been used to wipe out so many people and races throughout History, which is, and will continue to be our human dilemma!

Is it therefore a case of "arrogance" and "personal attacks" to point out that "arrogance" is very much embedded in those who make these claims?

That's why I concluded that BY VIRTUE OF US BEING HUMANS, we are subjected to the same frailties as every other human being; some more so than others.
It's who we are, and try as we may, we simply cannot escape it.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Why are we sidetracking and wasting time, talking about so-call commission ones. When from the very beginning my reference was about commission ones of God; meanings the true prophets sent by God as mention in the Holy Bible, The Holy Qur'an and other Holy Books. In my mind this is a division for whatever reason. Let's stick with the Truly Commission ones and forget about the so-call. We all know who they are.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

The commission ones: the question as to who are the commission ones is not a difficult one in my humble opinion to answer.
First: A commission one spoke of is a messenger and prophet of God, not one who forge a lie against God or any of the others Bro. Mya mentioned.
Second: There must be prophecies of the ancient prophets concerning him, on which the commissioned one makes his claim.
Thirdly: The commissioned must come at the appointed time, with a sign or signs in support of his claim. He must also be able to support his claim with powerful arguments that cannot be defeated.
Fourthly: The commission one must speak to the people presumptuously the words he hears from God, never his own.
Fifthly: The commission always prophecy of events which later come to pass.
In both the Holy Qur'an and the Holy Bible is an inevitable law that the false claimant will be killed. Read it in Deuteronomy ch.18 V 17-27
This is the framework in which I judge whether a claimant is genuine of false.
In conclusion on commission ones I will say that, when one fits this framework but is ignored or rejected by those he deliver the message to, then such a one is Arrogant. Here I am talking about People like Moses. Jesus and all the prophets mentioned in the Holy Bible, Buddha, Confucius, Muhammad and the numerous prophets who came to their people around the world.
May the Peace and the Blessings be on all of them.
Now we will go on to deal with TRUTH. What is truth? First of all, all truth is from the Divine source; that is why I said before; the truth cannot be defeated thus only an arrogant fool will challenge it. Each time a person reject a truth he creates a conflict within his or her own heart. Worldly education has never and will never give one the ability to recognize the truth. The criterion for recognizing and accepting truth is a pure heart; the third eye. Without it one is groping in darkness.
Lastly: No prophet ever claims to have a monopoly on Gods truth, each succeeding prophet support the ones before. The truth is; religion has been evolving piecemeal alongside man's evolution from the beginning of human life in this Earth. Each stage of human evolution God see it fit to send a new prophet to update the religion to suit the mental and spiritual advancement of the people.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Speaking in the name of God has always been the go to scenario for people claiming divinity and it is also the oldest con as one is caught with the fear of being blasphemous if they question the claim of speaking from God. While I agree with the criterion for identifying a prophet it still does not preclude that one should questions the doctrines of that person. All prophets that were named and that have graced this earth have been questioned and would always continue to be questioned as it is a “human condition” to question anyone and everyone. It is the basic tenant of FREE WILL and to take that away to doggedly follow one who claims to be whatever is downright foolish. Free will differentiates humans from animals and to give that up is to devolve to an animal state.

On the issue of the one who speak against God will be killed in Deuteronomy Ch. 18 V 20:” But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.” (KJV)
I would like to think that the term “even that prophet shall die” and “they would be killed” might have a different connotation as I don’t concur with the notion that anyone has right to decide that the person is or isn’t presumptuous and should be killed. If I go along with that a bit further I would have to question the teaching of many prophets and Avatars “commissioned ones/Messengers “as they were themselves were killed. Most of these Messengers of God were killed and their lives seemed to have followed a similar Motif as to birth, life and death and this seemed to be across cultures and Peoples. Should I then surmised that the teachings of Jesus was presumptuous because he was killed? Should I accept without question the teaching of those who would kill because it is arrogant to have questioned them?

All great Messengers or Prophets have been in great wisdom cognizant of the “Human Condition” and have delivered their message with that consideration in mind leaving room for assimilation of that message on the level that one has attained at that point of their development or evolution. The message was time-released, if you will, or piecemeal out giving the seeker latitude to the understanding and application of the teachings as there are numerous cultures and life experiences to navigate. This method breeds “Tolerance” among people and religions which in turn leads to peace.
I do believe that Truth has a Divine Source or is Absolute. On that premise it is then most unlikely that man in this finite state of existence will be able to lay claim to or proclaim TRUTH. It is my contention that

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)


when one evolves to assimilate TRUTH it can only be imparted though deeds not words.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

If by question we mean to ask the prophet how to do this or that, how to pray, how to treat others etc. These I have no problem with. But if on the other hand we are talking about questioning his authority or his teachings then that in my mind would be downright impertinent on our part. When God and His messenger decide upon a matter there is no choice in the matter concerning them; the believers. Who am I to be so arrogant as question God's prophet, once I recognize and reach certainty to the third degree, that he is from God, At this point, my obligation is to obey without question. For to question the prophet, is to question God himself. My ego is not that big to think like the fool who think he knows it all. It is a wonder to me that so many people I have meet in different parts of the world who never take a minute to study the claims, life and teachings of any of the prophet but will cast their teachings aside for their own egoist opinions. Until one loses his ego to the will of his Creator one is subject to the dictates of his own ego. Man's biggest enemy is his ego, it stands in the way of his spiritual progress and ultimate perfection. Arrogant actions fatten the ego. That is why it is said by prophet Jesus: it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter Paradise.

The Holy Quran says: "One who claims to be from God and is not; his jugular vain will be severed." That does not mean that people should kill him.as this punishment is reserve to God alone as his sin is agains God. What is actually mean is that God will bring his works and life to a disastrous end.Similar to what happen to Alexander Dowie a latter day false prophet from Zion city, Illinois.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

I am thoroughly enjoying this highly debated discussion between you Zafar and Maya. It could only have happened once you, Zafar, finally seem to realize that the responses to your original post were in no way personal, nor insulting.

That's how we learn! By the sheer passion of his posts, some of us may begin to understand Zafar's point and actually start to give credence to what he's been talking about. Congrats to both of you.
Sometimes things have a strange way of working themselves out!!!

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Tony De my friend, there are times when one is faced with an opportunity to practice one's discretion or jump straight to the dictates of justice. When you wrote your first response to my post (Which wasn't really about the post but about what you think I am)I was caught in a dilemma whether to break your back; which would be justice or respond in a covert form of kindness and compassion. at that point I chose the latter even though I was in the justice mode. However, because I came to understand (at age 23) the value of writing when an emotion is at its peak; I decided to go ahead and break your back in my mind;(even though I wasn't going to post it) then file it away in my archives. You see, I made a judgment, that if you had any good in you the way I planned to respond will bring it out, and if you didn't have some good qualities, it would have been made clean also;in that case, I would have pull out from my archives what I had first written and post it. Then the whole thing would have turned out very different...But you did the right thing, so I must commend you.I particularly took note that you were trying to associate me with ISIS. That I thought was a low blow. Howbeit, I am happy that I made the right judgment. Please understand that even though I avoid those who create disorder, no man is my enemy, I hate no man, I am jealous of no man and love and care for all people. Whatever you said is in the past. We can leave it there and move on to better things. In that case we might get to know each other better. Peace My Brother.

Over the years I check what people are doing on this forum and many times I saw people slamming each other to the ground; that sort of thing is childish and benefits no one. But this is not only here; it is in every page or website where there is an open forum from Grenada; be it political or otherwise. This trend seems to be the order of the day. We can change this if we choose to.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Unlike your tender 23 years of age, Zafar, I am 70 years old. So please believe me when I say that I don't think that I have much time left to be angry with you or anybody else.
However, that in no way prevents me from having and expressing a DIFFERENT point of view if that's the way I see it. Hey man, my thinking faculties are still alive and kicking, I hope!(lol).

That you understood it differently perhaps stem from how we hear or read and INTERPRET what we hear or read. As so often is the case, how things are interpreted or understood can be so vastly different from what the speaker had in mind. In my mind there was absolutely nothing personal in responding to you. As I said before, I don't even know who you are; so why be angry with you? So my young friend, I am thankful that you >>chose the latter even though I was in the justice mode.<<

Btw, you wrote >>I particularly took note that you were trying to associate me with ISIS.<< It's interesting that you did not also write "I particularly took note that you were trying to associate me with avid Christians."
Because, here is the actual sentence that I wrote >>Those words could easily be exhortations of Isis followers or for that matter avid Christians!!<<

Anyway like you, let us >>leave it there and move on to better things.<<

Finally, let me say that I particularly enjoy reading posts like yours and Mya and Mangodog. Your points of view are very clear and easy to understand. I hope all three of you will continue to make readers like me look forward to reading your posts on goGouyave.com's forum.

Best regards to all.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

There seems to be some misunderstand about my age, I am 69 not 23, sorry if I was less that clear in what I wrote. Here it is: “However, because I came to understand (at age 23) the value of writing when an emotion is at its peak;” I can see how it happened. My problem was, I thought everyone here knew I was an old man. Well Tony, you and I are about the same age and most likely we went to the same school when we were a young boys.
Tony, I did not attach you to a religion: For one; because the subject was a universal one and whether or not one practice religion, he or she is affected by it (the subject of arrogance) in the same way. Two: It matters not to me what religion a person follow, even if his or her religion were Atheism. Some of my very good friends were atheist. What matters was, they upheld good principles and there was mutual respect between us and we learned from one another...

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Yes, I totally misunderstood your age. Man, I was more than impressed that a 23 year old could write so powerfully. My mistake.

So you are 69 rather than 23. You are my contemporary, so it's likely that I know you, especially if you are from the Gouyave area. There used to be a guy we used to call Suraleigh, but my memory of him has dimmed with the passage of time. I think though he used to live in the Hubble bridge area, if I'm not mistaken. Is that who you are?

Finally, it seems now that we have a clearer understanding of where each other is coming from, so I salute you in concluding >>What matters was, they upheld good principles and there was mutual respect between us and we learned from one another...<<
That's what I hope too, will be the result of this conversation.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

I was born in Florida, the first son of Cyril Joseph, I attended both the Anglican and RC school at one time or the other until I was 12, then I left Grenada to live in Antigua where I live with an uncle who went to worked there as a judge, therefore half of my growing up was in Grenada and the other half was in Antigua, so carry both culture, When people ask me where are you from, my answer is: was born in Grenada grew up in Antigua then live everywhere else.
I was the first person to introduce Martial arts to Grenada around 1969-70. Mya can correct me if I am wrong. I was the one who set up Johnny Madrid to teach it in Grenada.
I was fortunate to get the opportunity to travel a great portion of the earth as a sailboat captain; sailing for wealthy people.

Everything is shape and condition by the environment in which it lives. And that my friends, is an unchanging fact of evolution.
What are the elements that shaped my life? First and foremost;1) I am a product of my religion, 2)my father, I would say, gave me a crude base for my thought process, 3)traveling also played a big part by presented thousands of experiences, 4) the wonderful people I met along the way, 5)martial-arts played a great part as it gave me the disciple, courage, order, and balance; all weapons to battle the elements and whatever came my way, 6)long journeys across the great ocean gave me lots of time for reflection and self-realization in quiet times when the ocean is at rest, the storms taught me lessons in humility, being on the Ocean for as much as 28 days sometimes where all one sees by day outside of your boat, is the sky and the horizon, while night brings the moon and the stars. All this forces One to reflect on the creation and The All wise and All Powerful Creator who put it all together. All together they are the elements or environments that made who I am now.

If I am asked: what achievement in my life I am most happy about; it is the thought of the thousands of people who my influence have help to change the direction of lives for the better. Everything else paled in comparison. And if I am ask what make me most sad: I will say; watching the digression of our fellow Caribbean people, from great statesmen in my young days, to petty wheeling and dealing politician of today. And I may add the deterioration of W.I Cricket. I would be interested in knowing what make you guys what you are.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

I firmly believe that the spirit of arrogance is highly destructive and must be overcome or neutralized as it is the foundation of intolerance which results in the violence between people and religions from the beginning of time. Arrogance breeds intolerance which causes peace among religions and peoples to fall between the cracks of the Mosaic of human existence. Unfortunately this is an age old and ongoing problem which will continue to be as it is one of the test and challenges on the way of personal evolution toward spiritual reconciliation.

We are in an age of rapidly flowing knowledge and a people that are more and more selfish in nature and confused as to their reality. People are seeking Spiritual knowledge and refuge, and as a result we see a drive to find it in churches, cults, and all forms of esoteric disciplines. We see a proliferation of churches as never before seen and the membership burgeoning to alarming proportions. We see people graduating to causes even of extreme natures all to find that which is perceived missing from their lives, and here we see the arrogant ones lying in wait to exploit that gullible crowd offering cures, prayers, and a lofty promise of the ultimate reward in the afterlife. It is arrogant for anyone to posture in that position and purport to be able to offer any of those things as one must himself/herself work towards their spiritual evolution. I agree that the Ego must be tempered but the Ego is part of the human condition and it is inflated by the spirit of arrogance therefore making it imperative that it is subdued.

Human evolution cannot be accomplished by blindly following any course but must actively be pursued with intelligence and a will to comprehend the tenants of the doctrine one has graduated towards bearing in mind that Tolerance is vital element in obtaining peace.

Re: Avoid Arrogance (It's a human condition!)

Pride is such a subtle thing that even the good and noble people are often unaware that they are showing it. Constant self-realization is needed to avoid and overcome this silent cancer of the soul. However, let me make one thing clear here so that we may not judge others wrongly; there is a clear distinction between personal dignity and pride. The former is wholesome self-respect.
"The vices of which you are ashamed are better than the virtues of which you are proud. Hazrat Ali."
That is to say; because shamefulness is an element in human nature created to aid self-reformation when it is activated, it gives one the opportunity to work on, and overcome one's weaknesses. But pride/arrogance on the other hand undermines the very foundation of the reforming structure in human nature; (which is called the reproving-self or conscience ) thus ruler-ship of the body is handed over to the Self that incites to evil.
And lastly I would like to comment on a couple of things Mya spoke about.
First of them is: evolution, I believe evolution is an ongoing process that is outside of man’s control. Example: When a woman gets pregnant the nine months of the gestation period is evolution, nothing she can do about it up until she deliver, when she is ready to deliver that baby no force in the world can prevent it even if it means death to the mother and the child. At the time when her water breaks, that my friends is revolution. Man has never been and will never be in control of evolution. Only God controls evolution and that goes for everything. Evolution is part of nature and nature does not like anything rubbing against it.
Second: I have some reservations that the ego belongs to the category of The Human Condition. I would like to believe that the Ego is something that is inherent or woven in to the fabric of human nature; similar to the human Will, in as much as The Human condition is always related to events, environment, circumstances, existence, life and death, love and relationships and so forth. My Dear Bro. Mya mentioned that: “Ego is part of the human condition and it is inflated by the spirit of arrogance therefore making it imperative that it is subdued.”
Now we seem to have a chicken and egg situation here. The question is, which comes first: Is the Ego inflated by arrogance or an inflated Ego breeds arrogance? I am incline to believe that arrogance springs from and inflated ego… What do you guy think?
As to the drive towards religion for solstice, I believe that human nature yarns for its creator. As God says in the Quran to the soul when he created it: “Am I not you Lord and it answer Yea we bare witness” That is to say: am I not your Creator, your Sustainer, your Protector, your Comforter, Guide etc. So this is why people seek out religion trying to find God when they are in difficulties find and thus many become victims to soothsayers. They failed because they did not carry the heart of a seeker, they did not make a diligent search by investigating and comparing all religion to see where the truth resides. Most of the time the fall victim to those who have the power to excite their emotions