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Re: Re : A legacy of migration.

There was a time when I used to dismiss you as someone who under the guise of "Downstreet," hid behind the sobriquet to take cheap shots at some of us posters.
As time past by however, a far different persona began unfolding before our very eyes. The "banter" between Vernon and yourself were at times too hilarious to continue dismissing as clueless. The comments about Grenada, and yes, even those incisive views of American politics left me in particular, speechless.
Now "why de hell you doh want to reveal who you really is, eh?" Even the inimitable Gouyaveman threw off his mantle to let us see that it was none other than Vernon Louison from the CAPITAL of Gouyave who was regaling us with his fantastic ideas and writings!!

Btw, thanks for helping to make this Talkshop the thoughtful and worthwhile board I always felt it could be. Brango, yes, but we are also much more than that alone. You are exemplifying that!!

Now let's get serious. Don't you think that you are paving too glorious a view of our past? Yes, there was a mass exodus from Grenada, and the Caribbean in general, but as Dr. Winston Phillips once pointed out to me, the word "exodus" is inappropriate to use. Instead the more correct term should be "overflow."
Overflow he argued, showed that Grenada had far too many scholars to fight over the little "kaka-doh" we have. So some had no choice but to leave, hence overflow. He continued that if it was a true exodus, what remained back home would be only numb-skulls and derelicts. Clearly that's not the case as I'm sure you would concede, unless you want me to believe that folks like yourself fall into that category too.

And if you really think about it, there never was a time when we were ever totally self-sufficient. While we used to buy all the provisions we needed on Saturdays in the market from our country farmers, we still had to import sugar, flour, rice, salt-fish, sweeties and corned beef to make life the joy we are now fondly recalling. Even Turban curry and coffee were imported from T&T, not to mention her famed canned grapefruit juice. Yes, we made our own tops and kites, but the "bombs" and "caps" for our toy guns when we played "ganga-gang" were not made in Grenada. So let's not taint our recollection with too many idyllic fantasies.

Sure enough we never depended on KFC or Mickey D to feed ourselves. Our chickens were raised in the yard. And our dependence on foreign products was far less. Yes, we were very innovative! But with the advent of modern technology, the entire world is becoming "Americanized." It seems that a Caribbean home without the modern conveniences of a typical American home is not really a home. Every house that's worth it's salt must be a "noggin" house built with steel and bricks. It must have a least 3 bedrooms with built in toilets in the master bedroom and other guest bathrooms. And of course can you imagine a kitchen without built-in fridges and stoves? That's what we are requiring in order to satisfy our "needs."

And finally let's remember that today's unemployment is not a by-product of changing times. Let's not forget that there were always "limers" who would beg you for a "shilling dey nuh man."

Hey Downstreet, immigration left a major dent in the social and economic life of Grenada. But my reason for pointing out those facts is to indicate that just as the social media today is as much a part of Grenadian life as it is of the USA, the "basic needs" of a Gouyave home had to sooner or later be also the same "basic needs" of an American. That's change. That's reality! Those are external forces that we have little control over unless we want to resort to despotic rule.

How we react and sanely deal with those changes is really the true challenge that's facing us.

----------- Hey, talking is good for the mind!!!!!

Re: Re : A legacy of migration.

>>>>

Tony De
There was a time when I used to dismiss you as someone who under the guise of "Downstreet," hid behind the sobriquet to take cheap shots at some of us posters.<<<<<

Tony Tony Tony, you are far to kind, and hopefully, you have learned that it is never a good thing to be dismissive of others, especially when this is done hastily and prematurely. As every young man knows,it feels good for a moment until your partner lets out a long steuppss.Rather than hiding behind a sobriquet, and taking cheap shots, I was stoutly defending my "Borough", and promoting the place aka "Downstreet".I suppose this is why this blog is entitled "Go Gouyave" and not "Arthurs own thing"

>>>>>Now "why de hell you doh want to reveal who you really is, eh?" Even the inimitable Gouyaveman threw off his mantle to let us see that it was none other than Vernon Louison from the CAPITAL of Gouyave who was regaling us with his fantastic ideas and writings!!<<<<<

This blog exists for self expression,its not a popularity contest. As I stated a long tine ago, it is about the "message" and not the "messenger" Would I not be "clueless"if my name was "DR. Phillips? or Vernon. I am not a victim of that Grenadian malady which requires everyone to identify not only themselves, but their aliases and their entire family tree. This is a relic of Colonial days when one had to be "known" to get a job, even as a yardboy. One's qualification today is based on "the degree" not "the pedigree."

>>>>Now let's get serious. Don't you think that you are paving too glorious a view of our past? Yes, there was a mass exodus from Grenada, and the Caribbean in general, but as Dr. Winston Phillips once pointed out to me, the word "exodus" is inappropriate to use. Instead the more correct term should be "overflow."
Overflow he argued, showed that Grenada had far too many scholars to fight over the little "kaka-doh" we have. So some had no choice but to leave, hence overflow.<<<<<.

I humbly disagree with the goodly Doctor, to accept his thesis, is to suggest that tiny Manhattan Island is too full of Bankers,Stockbrokers and Businessmen and therefore they should depart for Kansas or Wyoming. We remain that "Likkle Kakado"
because we have failed to develop the resources that we have,and those human resources that we did develop, back then, we we shipped them out as though they were bananas.We exported teachers while our secondary schools increased from six to twenty-six, we exported nurses and potential medical students, leaving our health services, in a sad state, and forests flourish, where plantations, used to, or should be.

>>>>>And if you really think about it, there never was a time when we were ever totally self-sufficient. While we used to buy all the provisions we needed on Saturdays in the market from our country farmers, we still had to import sugar, flour, rice, salt-fish, sweeties and corned beef to make life the joy we are now fondly recalling. Even Turban curry and coffee were imported from T&T, not to mention her famed canned grapefruit juice. Yes, we made our own tops and kites, but the "bombs" and "caps" for our toy guns when we played "ganga-gang" were not made in Grenada. So let's not taint our recollection with too many idyllic fantasies.<<<<<

Jeez guy, are you proud of the fact that fishermen sold their fresh catch and bought saltfish, dried and salted by Canadians, simply because we had not that extra step. Yard fowls are parading the streets, frightening Gouyave children, who believe them to be winged "Troglodytes" while we cue up in long lines, to eat chicken slaughtered years ago, and served to us by a Colonel from Kentucky, seriously? Tf Ms Kate could make candies,how we could not find a way to mass produce them,wrap sweetie paper around them? Are the Nova Scotians and Trinidadians some superior beings, capable of achieving knowledge, beyond our reach.

My Grandfather grew coffee in what is now knonn as the rainforest, and locally grown corn-meal was often a substitute for wheat flour in our home.You are conflating the term "self reliant" which I wrote, with "self sufficient", which you wrote.It was probably a good thing that the "bombs and caps for toy guns",came at a cost, which saved many of our youth, from being indoctrinated into that culture.

Finally, I am a firm believer in evolution, personal and societal development, I totally understand the need for human beings to utilise whatever "creature comforts" that may enhance their short stay on this planet, what I do not believe is that a society should sacrifice its traditions,morals, culture and soul, on the altar of expediency and "shiny Foreign things".This incidentally how Manhattan was sold by the Indians, and the African race,were sold into slavery.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration.

General De`Street,

Ceasefire! Cessefire! Cessez-le!

I took the precautionary measures of running for shelter in my bunker, taking with me my helmet and survival kit when I heard the sound of your war cry, "Tony, Tony, Tony". It was  reminisce of General Yamamoto's Kamakasis cry on that infamous day on December 7, 1941 when their bombing of Pearl Harbor was preceeded with the battle cry of "Tora! Tora! Tora!".

And as you did not make use of Motha's repeating exclamation points behind the good Monsieur's name, I took solice in knowing that your arial missiles bombardment would not be indiscriminate in taking casualties but would be in consideration of his association with the other good Monsieurs and political partisan here.....myself included, though lacking both degree and pedigree... Lol. It is because of this one act of civility by you, that Monsieur Tony De may "live to fight another day" which could have the potential of prolonging the war. And as he too is also armed with nuclear weapons of his own, you can rest assured that he may follow the pattern of his American trained mind with a delayed retaliatory delivery, synonymous with the Hiroshima and Nagasaki destruction on August 5, 1945.

But in defense of our ami politique, his Moss Coded communication signals may have been crossed,(cheap Cinese wireing, I suppose) hence inducing him into making a bad assessment of "the percieved Submarine, travelling clandestinely in his midst". His call for an identification had forced him to reveal his position in a manner that may be viewed as hostile but his intention was only meant to take all proactive measures by staying in close proximity of friends and foes alike.

From my observational point of view, I must conclude that the casuality was a result of friendly fire coming your way, which you rightfully characterized as "still deadly".

VJL

Re: Re : A legacy of migration.

>>As a boy, I took it for granted that family and friends would grow up and always be together, celebrate each other’s achievements, and be supportive when disappointments occurred. It was unthinkable that a time would come when we would be separated by distance from each other as we entered adulthood. It was unthinkable that we would not know the children of our friends and family, and indeed become virtual strangers.<<

I do hope that the above paragraph quoted from my original post on migration revealed how I sincerely feel about one of the legacies of migration. I hope the words have painted a clear picture of the "messenger" as well as the "message." For me, it's impossible to separate the two.

But I never expected that always stating my real name would be construed as a "popularity" contest. Funny, but against whom I wonder?

When I was told about goGouyave.com, I instantly thought of it as a god-sent for old Gouyave friends to recognize and reunite with each other as in days of old. How could we do so if we chose instead to use sobriquets rather than using the old familiar names we used to know?

So I was absolutely thrilled when the poster, John Welsh, revealed that he was Miss Eleana's son, Hollis "Melo" Benjamin. Yes, the same Melo who was one of the New Street boys with whom I grew up. Sure enough Melo and I are yet to meet in person, but just knowing that he is alive and well, and that we can communicate is a joy that I can hardly express in mere words.

That's what goGouyave.com means to me! It is not just the message; far more important to me is the messenger. That's why Vernon Louison revealing to the board that he was the inimitable Gouyaveman was so heartening. Yes, his brilliant postings/messages were very much enjoyed, but actually getting to know the person/messenger behind the mantle was even more thrilling, well to me at least! That's the reason for my wondering "who the devil is behind Downstreet." It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with popularity, nor being in the limelight, my friend. It has everything to do with renewing old friendships!

Could you imagine that I'm on the train in London or New York and I am totally ignorant of the fact that the young man or woman sitting beside me is the son/daughter of my old friend Malcolm "Scroomzie" Gay, or Hilton "Cocoa-Tea" Superville, or Cuthbert "Cotto" Gibbs? That's one of the sad legacies of migration. I've seen it so many times at social gatherings and funerals.

This takes us right back to what I originally voiced, that because of immigration we have virtually severed the ties that once bound us together. We expected that we would grow up knowing our friends' children and shouting out loudly when they succeeded, or offering a sympathetic shoulder when things did not turn out as hoped for. That's what we understood by the term "it takes a village to raise a child."

Downstreet, being strangers to one another is one of the "maladies" (copied from Vernon) that migration has left us with. As far as I'm concerned anything that could help tear down the separation and bring us even an inch closer like knowing who we are talking with, is very much welcomed in my book.

Btw, why don't you follow up on the question asked by KOP? A book by you on the effects of immigration should be a joy to read.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Good day Gentlemen, or would you prefer "Monseurs". I must apologise for my last post, which seems to have been interpreted as caustic, by some, and cataclysmic by others.This was certainly unintentional, since I usually go out of my way, not to ruffle any feathers or rumple any anyone's crimplene.

Tony, I totally missed the "raison d'etre", for the establishment of the Go Gouyave Forum.I assumed that it was a platform for self expression, and a facility for the free flow of ideas and information, I was not aware that it was supposed to be a message board by which folks from the far flung diaspora, can meet, greet and connect,

Please excuse my ignorance, but something may have been lost in the translation, by the time the forum made it all the way, to the Lower Depradine.and they aint call it "lower" for nutten. About that "identification ting", priv-acy (we English too bad),should be a matter of choice,some like Clarkes Court, me luv me Rivers.

Now you Monsieur Vernon, mon amie. It took only three, little four letter words, to send you running for cover,while conjuring up visions of a nuclear holocaust, coming to the forum.I am undecided as to whether I should re-baptise you (if you were ever baptised), as Chicken Little, or one of Kuznetsov's "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, (circa 1887). That way you go from being a Norseman to a Horseman.

Methinks that your warlike nature may have been imbedded in your DNA, either by your Kalinago ancestry, or your affinity for playing with bombs and caps, when you were a "wee laddie".Either way your propensity for confrontation, is anathema to the blissful, peaceful, idyllic existence of the denizens of Downstreet.Hey ah school a jacks jes break around the point, blow de whistle bwoy, wake up Capt. Jimbo.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

HEY down street you said AH school ah Jacks just break Around D point,Blow D whistle and wake up CAPT. Jimbo, LOL,Downstreet if Capt.Jimbo was feting on Rumsipper or kakapul the night before, before they could wake him up where he is sleeping on the pile of net to be mended by d BAY,(DAT school ah Jacks is Long gone pass D Lance on its Way Pass Palmist) LOL,

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Ok Downstreet. I have been reading all your postings. Even though I do not respond, I've been (peeping, marcoing) We are all from gouyave. In case you don't know who I am, my name is Merle otherwise known as Merle mammie Dolly from Edward street AKA back street. So now you know Tony, Vernon, Melo, please tell us who you are. Based on your postings I know that you are a real Gouyave man.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

It's obvious that we both agree on the negative legacies of immigration. So all I was doing was supporting your view point.
But yes, I did feel that you went a little overboard in painting too rosy of a picture of yester-year. We did have our problems back then too.
I was therefore at a loss to understand your very "caustic" response to my post. It seemed as though you came out with all guns blazing to take me out (lol). Vernon was right in referring to it as Tora, Tora, Tora all over again!

Anyway, I bear no ill will especially as you wrote "I must apologise for my last post." It only goes to show how easily what we write can be totally misconstrued. As Verne would say, "we good?"

Btw Downstreet, I have not read anywhere where Arthur categorically stated that the Forum was strictly "supposed to be a message board by which folks from the far flung diaspora, can meet, greet and connect." Arthur never wrote that anywhere. I am the one who viewed it as such. Not Arthur.
That's my reason for having such a real hard time with folks who resorted to sobriquets instead of their real names to converse/discuss/agree with/disagree or what have you with folks they know so well.
In Gouyave we all knew each other whether by nicknames or real names so I was at a loss that some of us chose not to disclose our names. The interesting thing is that no one seems to have any problems whatsoever disclosing their identity on Facebook. If anything, in the majority of cases they provide even much more than just their real names. Yet when it comes to this Forum, our own local Gouyave Facebook, some of us seem to have a hard time disclosing who we are, and choose instead to hide behind pen-names. What is so scary about goGouyave that is not scary about Facebook? I am at a loss to understand the logic behind it.

Moreover with us being in the "far flung diaspora" as you so aptly put it, I would have thought that our Forum was providing us with the perfect local meeting place to renew old friendships and reconnect once again. That's why I'm so glad to be able to chat with Hollis "Melo" Benjamin, Merle "Mammie Dolly" Edmund-Becton and others.

So my dear friend, whoever you are, please don't think that I am seeking publicity/popularity for publicly disclosing who I am. Is Gouyaveman, who we now know is Vernon Louison likewise seeking popularity too?

Regardless, like Merle has also asked, I'd still like to know who is this eloquent, intriguing and thought-provoking man behind Downstreet?

Take care, now.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

HEY tony don't worry one day DOWNSTREET go come out from under d stone hole he hiding LOL,LOL, Yes and when GOUYAVEMAN did REVEAL himself from hiding behind that BIG CLOAK LOL,i said to myself I had a big hunch its was VERNON MISS (VITALIS RIP)son.HEY tony correction its not SCRUMZIE U FORGET,ITS SCRUMZIE BISCUIT HEAD LOL) And most of the friends u mention I to havnt seen them in years,(HEY merle where is LYNIKA & MARGARET have they gone back to GRENADA) YES tony I saw no reason why us gouyaverians should hide our ID on talkshop, DONT worry one day Downstreet go,go up d lance and we`ll find out who he is LOL,LOL.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Hey Melo, I really don't know Lynka or Margaret, except on talk shop. I understand that Lynka is related to Mikey Passee.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

OK THANKS MERLE,

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Uncle Tony and Aunty Merle,it is unfortunate that my failure to identify myself, has seemed to put a damper on the Cumbayah Campfire, that this forum represents to some of you. If the price of admission, requires the presentation of my I D card, I am afraid I will have to opt out, and leave it to those, who can make better use of it, than I can.

It is ironic that not too long ago, folks here went through great pains to explain to me the necessity of posting the nicknames of the deceased, because most people would not recognize their given names.The same people are today demanding that I produce my real name because they do nor recognize my nickname "Downstreet".

As we all know, whether I declare myself to be ,Willie Williams, John Smith or Donald Trump, there would be follow up questions, did your mother work in the pool, or did your father play for St Johns Sports? etc etc. None of this matters,I am NOT a subscriber to Facebook or Twitter, and I get on with my life without them just fine. If Go gouyave was a home grown version, I would not participate.I still believe in that ancient crazy notion known as "privacy".

Lighten up Tony, it's all good, even if you tend to misconstrue the meaning of my posts sometime. The world is not black and white, there are many shades of grey and colors,which seeps into my posts. If one always take a literal interpretation to my writing, some of the meaning will definitely will be lost. I never said for instance that Arthur set up the forum as a message-board,or a place to connect, those were your assertions, and was simply responding to them.read the post again, I believe that you will come to a different conclusuon.

Either way I am done with having to explain myself to those who misunderstand or misconstrue,its simply to time consuming. From now on Veron is being hired as "Explainer in Chief". Peace out.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

I am accepting full blame for the direction this blog has taken, so if you are with me, let's not prolong it any further.

Man, I felt so extremely happy reading your posts that I wanted to know who the real actual person behind the nickname/sobriquet/pen-name is. Therefore it's my fault for really wanting to cheer you, my friend, in the same way we cheered Vernon when he disclosed his identity.
You don't want to, you don't have to, period! So please forgive my "intrusion" into your privacy. It's your right to reveal or nor reveal who you are, but the Gouyave thing in me just wanted so badly to say "hooray for ?/aka Downstreet."

Anyway I hope you do understand that it had nothing to do with inquisitiveness or popularity or whatever else. Man, all I wanted to do was to beat my chest and say "here is another highly gifted Gouyave writer who is making everyone stand in his shoe in admiration and ponder." You are that kind of person!

Finally when you wrote "Uncle Tony and Aunty Merle," you certainly aroused even more curiosity in me to know you. So I am taking the liberty to say "hi nephew, my sincerest compliments to you!!"

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Tony I totally understand your sentiments, and did so from jump street.However there is nothing to stop you or anyone from expressing praise for writers on this blog, even if we are not personally familiar with them. I quote Shakespeare, Hardy and Milton, from time to time, if I ever met them, I don't quite remember. The fact that Tony De, Mya, and Merle. does not identify you to me is not a problem at all, I assume that like Downstreet, they too may be sobriquets.I just do not recall the De family of Gouyave, but I might be wrong.
Enough about that. So now that we are in the age of Trump, any advice to those comrades living in the cold, which is about to become way way colder? Should the "overflow" from Spice, still be yearning for a better life , in the land of the free and home of the brave? Young Guavearians, would like to know, before they jump, or are pushed.

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Downstreet, I admire your style and enjoy your contribution to this forum and frankly I take the message for what it is and not who wrote it. I admire your exercise of wisdom and understanding of the dynamic of this forum and I like the fact that you maintain your anonymity I feel your continuing to be an enigma here is driving some people crazy but I feel that you should continue to keep it that way. It is my personal feeling that the pressure to unveil you is a dynamic that will lead to a focus on the messenger rather than the message, to put it mildly. There is a saying that a prophet has no honor in his own place; “but isn’t he just the carpenter’s son?”
We have noticed that no one asks for the identity of “just a note” or the newcomer “hammer”. Why? As for my handle I am probably better known by that name that my proper name, so to speak.

The topic started with a very interesting topic “A legacy of migration” and it struggled to get some traction but soon as Downstreet dropped an exit line “ah school a jacks jes break around the point, blow de whistle bwoy, wake up Capt. Jimbo.” The thread takes off, and Off track so I ask did we really leave it behind or just masquerading under some pretense. Why is it that we revert time and time to this clique mentality which seems to kill the participation in the forum?

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

You are quite right Maya. A topic like that is far too far-reaching to get bogged down by what is essentially a triviality. It was just my curiosity that took us off the path. So let's get back to the substance.
I hope you would contribute to the new topic "Migration and its legacies."

Re: Re : A legacy of migration greetings Tony and Vernon

Thank you Mya, your contribution to this forum has been highly informative, insightful and hopefully beneficial to all.I cannot say that I threw in the "JACKS" as bait, nor would I be in anyway critical of those who went for it. A forum on the World Wide Web, will attract a wide cross-section of people, who would get a plethora of meanings and uses out of it. Thank you. and have a nice day.