Views expressed on this website are those of the person or persons posting the message and does not reflect the views of Gogouyave.com
Rules Of this Talk Shop
Do not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, obscene, vulgar, hateful, abusive, threatening, or an invasion of a person's privacy, or otherwise a violation of any laws.
So please! please! try to keep your posts clean. Webmaster
Said the Downstreet "conversational provocateur"
".....If I was to be politically correct, I would remind you that Dyer Marquez is a Portuguese descendant from the South land who may not like your Francophone version of his name."
"McKay" happens to be one of my favorite Gouyave personalities and one whom I have admired all during my youthful days. I doubt he would frown of my "Francophoning" or even my Africanization of his name.
But your mentioning of his Portuguese descendence brings into focus the varied nationalities that left behind their "hybrid genes" that continue in Gouyave to this day. I was always intrigued by the cultural mix that once formed our kaleidoscopic tapestry of varied nationalities and hues, and became even more suspect of that "nice harmonious relationship" we laid claim too.
Was it always that way?
Looking back and with a little more insight into their immigration status, it continues to be an inquisition in the waiting and one which I am sure has a History of its own.
For example, we had men like Domingo (the Taylor), The Donaldson's (remembering Kipuchi); The Dabreo's (Frank and Brothers); The Bernadine's (Dux-dux and Brothers) The Guinessie's ; The Vincent's; The Roche's; The Duncan's; The Mathlyn's; Miss Henny, Miss DeFratas and last but not least, the Duncans; all with ancestral national origins from other countries that contributed to the Gouyave experience. This begs to ask the question of making general historical references to our people from the context of a pre colonial period of slavery to the more diversified town that we now know. Have we remained consistant in our socio-political and cultural diversities efforts along the way so as to draw any parallel between then and now?
Maybe you, Selwyn or the good Peter St. Paul may be able to give us some account of their transitioning into the more dominant African culture by way of "injection" or otherwise.
“…Maybe you, Selwyn or the good Peter St. Paul may be able to give us some account of their transitioning into the more dominant African culture by way of "injection" or otherwise…”
After you kall me all de names in the world and make me feel unwelcomed in de Gouyave Talkshop? Man you aint easy! But is okay. I could take me licks too ;-)
So actually, most Grenadians today can trace their roots to Africans introduced to Grenada as Indentured or “Liberated” Africans. The first thing the British administrators did with these Africans was to have them baptized in an Anglican Church. They had learned their lesson from those ‘ungrateful’ French and their loyal slaves in 1795 – 1797. Those Africans had an option of keeping an African name as their surname that was associated with their ethnic or national group. For example – Sane, to ID them as being a member of a Senegal ethnic group. Others and most adopted the surname of the estate owner or manger that they were assigned to. So today most Grenadians with surnames like Mitchell, Whiteman, Langdon, some Campbell’s, have Indentured or Liberated African ancestors.
I could go on and on with this but I will stop here for now. But this just shows how complex our little island culture is! We are not a Jack Sprat culture as some like to “make us out” today. Every island is unique BUT have some commonality that is often too highlighted. I have been looking into your surname after my other posts where you did everything to cuff me down :-) Interesting…. If this shop survive I will talk a little bit about what I find and talk more on this subject of “injection” of cultures in our nation. Wish me well ! ;-)
Very, very interesting, Peter. Regardless of how we may react to your postings, please don't let it prevent you from continuing to post, that is assuming the Talkshop remains open. You are providing an invaluable service to Grenadians!!! Keep it up. All we ask is that your information be based on facts. We'll deal with your opinions and implications (lol).
"So actually, most Grenadians today can trace their roots to Africans introduced to Grenada as Indentured or “Liberated” Africans."
This statement confounds me. "Indentured or “Liberated” Africans? Are you saying that only the French and not the British enslaved Black people? Please elaborate.
P.S: My not continuing to participate in the postings for a while will only be that this Sunday I'm leaving for Cuba and then on to Grenada until mid-September, and may not be able to respond until I return.
Tony, first of all I hope your trip to Cuba is most enjoyable – as I suspect it would. Cuba has some history on Liberated Africans.
The Liberated and Indentured Africans I was thinking of was those who were removed from slave trader’s ships after the British ended the slave trade on paper. The indentured Africans I referred to were those who signed contracts AFTER emancipation (1835) to come to the Grenada to work.
St. Paul, Sah!
When I saw your initial post on Gogouyave, I welcomed you with the opened arms of a Monsieur and good gentleman that I am. I saw your inquiry and was the first to acknowledge my shortcomings with being unable to provide you with an answer. But I knew the History lessons would soon follow as I had been exposed to little tid-bits of it in "the other house". And with flying colors, you gave us quite a lot; some, retaining their authenticity in the original French language in which they were written, hence our reliance on your interpretation. Others were thesis of our own Caribbean folks, pointing to what they saw as "our tribal tendencies", all with your summations with references and appropriate footnotes. To date, my only objection (albeit a flowery one) was during your "coronation ceremony of Miss Zabetti" where I had a contrary opinion. I had choosen to focus on her prolonging the struggle (even though through no fault of her own) while you had choosen to focus on her entrepreneurial ambitions in continuing to enslave our Forefathers.
Now Sah! was this an unwelcoming mat? or is it just you playing the character of Devil's Advocate.....again! with a Copper of hot oil waiting to boil my a.. this Monsieur?
I do pray that your inquisition does not reveal another set of barbarous acts of the British on dem Louison's and that they did not suffer the same fate like the DeCorteaux,s. But that fight is for their bloodline offsprings in Canada to take up and I would not be surprised if they say " it was we Blacks with their last names that fretted the British".
I also must remember that barbarism were always the acts committed by the oppressed.
Much appreciate your response and ah beg you pardon for making you feel unwelcome. Pennance and Entreme Unction are in order for me, Sah!.....lol
“….I had choosen to focus on her prolonging the struggle (even though through no fault of her own) while you had choosen to focus on her entrepreneurial ambitions in continuing to enslave our Forefathers….”
It is statements like the above that keeps my interest in this kind of stuff – alive. It is so unfair to Madam Zabetta. The evil was in the institutions; not individuals. In the time that Zabetta wrote her will (1780s), most enslaved Africans in Grenada had almost completely accepted their place as enslaved members in that European created society. The insurgency in 1795 – 1797 was about cultural identity, the greedy side of Capitalism (brought about by the British), and the obstruction of a true developing nation by British rule. The French whites who were really defining this new nation had become the new nation. They did so with their African slaves even as Slavery STILL remained a legal institution.
After the British took control of the island the first law on the books was to stop the development of anything of a Creole nation. It became extremely difficult and near impossible to free women like Zabetta, white French master’s colored children, or African or colored people on the island. The British had NO interest in developing West Indian nations. Their only purpose there were to get as much work as possible out of the enslaved Africans even if it meant working them to death. The French on the island maintained Slavery but they had a very different relationship with their slaves. The Fedon insurrection showed that. During the insurrection enslaved Grenadians had the opportunity – like in Haiti, to wipe out ALL the white French masters and their white and colored families on the island. Instead the records shows that they sided with these masters in an attempt to wipe out British rule and Capitalism that benefited Great Britain. After over seven thousand slaves committed their lives to this struggle, the survivors together with their former French masters were all grouped together and tried, hanged, and forced into exile with no special treatment based on race or color.
We remained that defeated people to this day. That final struggle defined us without curiosity until our dictator and the PRG found political propaganda uses to bamboozle the uninformed masses with Nancy Stories about the Fedon insurrection. Fedon and him Comrades’ anger was about maintaining their dignity as a new Grenadian. Had the insurrection prevailed, enslaved Africans would not have remained an enslaved people. They would have been more equal in building New Grenada! We would have had our own true national identity. Confident of who were are. Not divided in a Colony where a few selected were schooled in Great Britain and returned to support the interest of Great Britain, and rewarded now and then with senseless titles bearing names of Empires and afforded the opportunity every decade or so to line up in the streets to view an imperial figure in all her glory. How disgraceful. My intention is to try and change this.
I am hoping one day more of our people will see the importance of this aspect of our history. Jane Landers, who shares little or non of our experiences, is credited with enlighten the world about our struggles.
"The evil was in the institutions; not individuals."
Really? Did the institution evolve of its own accord without any human input?
"We remained that defeated people to this day. That final struggle defined us without curiosity until our dictator and the PRG found political propaganda uses to bamboozle the uninformed masses with Nancy Stories about the Fedon insurrection. Fedon and him Comrades’ anger was about maintaining their dignity as a new Grenadian. Had the insurrection prevailed, enslaved Africans would not have remained an enslaved people. They would have been more equal in building New Grenada! We would have had our own true national identity. Confident of who were are. Not divided in a Colony where a few selected were schooled in Great Britain and returned to support the interest of Great Britain, and rewarded now and then with senseless titles bearing names of Empires and afforded the opportunity every decade or so to line up in the streets to view an imperial figure in all her glory. How disgraceful. My intention is to try and change this."
I would have liked to delve further into your above conclusions. Maybe next time. But do keep up the good work.
American John Brown – one of my American Heroes, was a dignified individual who put his and his family’s life on the line for his belief that the institution of slavery was a disgrace to mankind, and he was a white individual. Part of the same group of people that kept the institution of slavery going.
I would NEVER say that the original French Colonialist who brought African slaves to Grenada and destroyed the indigenous people were saints. Like all European Colonialist, they were not. Colonial United States of America was faced with the same crisis Fedon and his comrades were faced with in 1776 when they felt that they were now a different people and nation and wanted not to be under British rule. Their struggle is celebrated today as a great struggle against a tyrannical imperial power. The Irish felt the same way and lost many struggles to rid themselves of British rule too. I don’t understand why folks think we should not rewrite our history to reflect the true meaning of our struggles to define ourselves. Our leaders after Fedon were a disgrace. Even the PRG ignored our rich homegrown history for an international manufactured substitute which had to fail. People want to take pride in their own identity. Not be told who they should be based on the philosophy of an individual who lived in an apartment in urban Berlin.
We have a very rich and complex history. We need honest discussions and research to claim it and use it.
An example of this is this recent story published in the NYT about America’s greatest distiller Jack Daniel. For over a hundred years it was accepted by the world that he was the genus behind the invention of Jack Daniel’s Bourbon. Even if many African Americans knew otherwise, the story never left the fields of Tennessee, and Nearest Green, a Slave, never go the credit he was entitled to. That story could have stayed like that with the usual Afro radicals just running their mouth as usual about the truth, but never accredited in the annals of history. But again, we need to be fair to ourselves. This African American woman who did a ton load of research and presented a table full with over ten thousand documents, was no ordinary woman. She HAD THE RESOURCES to carry out this project on her own! Best book Author, a husband who is a CEO in the Sony organization. This gave her the resources most of our people who truly care about our history do not have! The average Grenadian could not give two cents about their true history. We are too busy catching up on all the things our forefathers were denied. We need to be honest with ourselves when we fret about our nomadic lives and identity.
I cannot believe that an innocent remark, regarding the misspelling of the venerable icon of Down Street, Dyer Marquez's name, would spawn a tsunami of discourse on ethnic origin, DNA and Genetics. We got some deep brothers on this blog. Right after, came History, and recrimination for disrespect by some, of others with contrary views, Tisk Tisk Tisk.
So tell me VJL how ah fellah so proud of your French Heritage is so disrespectful of the Catholic Church? Were you not paying attention when your teacher in the Catholic School, say that it was your French Forefathers who brought the Latin Mass to the South Side?
So while we are all celebrating ethnic diversity in the Spiceland, and our African Origins, we must remember that Homo Sapiens is said to have originated in the East African Rift Valley, so all the other labels are basically second hand stuff. Right?
I would have thought that the discussion about ethnicity, would mention the indigenous ethnic sub group most unique to the Gouyaveland, the " SODDERS". What happened there? are they hybrids? DNA defects, or implants from an alien world? Do we know, have we ever inquired or investigated, or are those claiming to be the historians, curators and guardians of all things Gouyave, simply uninterested in this case.
Could it be that they are peeping for the spaceship to land on Bricky Hill, and announce 'Attention Gouyavarians and other earthlings'!!, to see will be the first to run up there and start speaking Martian. I am betting on Mama San from the French Quarter.
"....So tell me VJL how ah fellah so proud of your French Heritage is so disrespectful of the Catholic Church? Were you not paying attention when your teacher in the Catholic School, say that it was your French Forefathers who brought the Latin Mass to the South Side?....."
Maybe they did that because of my peeps wanted to maintain their own culture of appealing to their own God through Shango and Obeah and found the South side was more wanting of that Latin tongue that kept kept them in chains.
Do you think that the Gospel, according St. Paul may have references to that?
Now regarding the "Sorders",
I am still stuck trying to determine if there is any truth in the Wilson family (Cyril,Molly, Dorothy, Reginal,Gerald; that group)of the French Quarters being direct descendants from our indigenous, Caribs.They were a very nice family, easy going and respectable.
But you can bet the Sorders were in the genetic hybridization line with us as we went through the African filtration system and acquired more "Europeanoxy Nucleic Acid" in we blood.
And how come you forget to mention your peeps,dem Albinos up in Clozier, eh! Dem en we people too?
Monsieur Louison again!
Funny thing is that a fellah from St Davids brought up de Sodder thing to me some time ago, and then he said "That aint nutten. He said that there was a family up in Windsor Forrest, I know that you are from the West, and do not know that such a place exists, so he said that family is strange, their arms come all the way to their knees, and one has to go up there to see them, because they never leave the village, or go to town.
Would the resident anthropologists, geneticists and Historians please investigate?
Speaking about investigation, has the posse deployed by Tony Dee to identify and capture those two miscreants, who go by the monikers, Down street and T/S Selwyn, reported their findings yet. Is that the same outfit employed by the Chump,and dispatched to Hawaii to find Obamma's Kenyan birth paper, sone years ago?
And speaking of The Chump, how can you stomach that Guy? Are you one of the many considering packing up, and coming to Jam us up in the City that never sleeps? De place ic overcrowded as we speak.Try Gran Pouvre. Is it true that Tony's search for "You know who" is a cover up for a covert mission to find a suitable residential compound, for the repatriation of what would come to be called, the First Family of the French Quarter? Is it true? eh? is it true?
Never mind all of that!
Go find Selwyn, quick! and ask him to calculate how much it would cost to paint the Nutmeg Pool. From the time it was built, I don't remember a dab of new paint ever going on that structure again despite generating Millions of dollars in profits and providing lucrative employment for dem GCNA fellas in Town.
Tell Sello to hurry up as two ah dem people here think it is a good idea for We! The People to pool we little ca-ca-dah and paint the pool for dem.
Tell im doh forget to add in the cost for the scaffoling, scrubbing/water blasting and the little touch-up before the painting kud start. You know how he stop with his new method of counting; taking 6 for 9 and adding zeros because to him, dey doh have no value.
And the color! Oh God!the color. Ah hope dey doh make ah statement with dat new color.
After dat we go figure out what the new improved working conditions; the Air Conditioning and ventilation of dat place should be.
Vernon. as ah small fry in dis town, ah try not to involve meself in big municipal matters as de painting of de Pool, but since you insist on bringing me in dis talk. ah have to say my piece.
First of all de Pool is not located in de French Quarter, it is in de Demilitarized Zone between Down Street and all you up dey, so ah doh see why you gettin so twisted about if dey go paint it, an what color it go be.
As far as ah know, dey say people in Grenada stop pick up nutmeg long ago, dey say it dont pay.So wat dey need a Pool for, I not ah land owner so ah doh know. Dey say de GCNA mismanage de bizness to extinction and even dat big compound on the Lagoon is ketchin its nen nen.Ah doh know.
Ah padner of mine who name ah not callin say, dey should find something else to do wid dat place, so de talk came up in de shop, as to what to do. One fellah say, turn into a shopping mall, and call it de Midtown Mall, annodder fellah say, turn it into ah place for prisoners on probation, and call it de Halfway House, because it is Halfway between Downstreet and de Lanse. Annodder Fella say no need for all dem fancy ideas and names, de place is de Pool arreddy, turn it into ah swimmin pool, so you and you brudder could come back an practice de back stroke, and win Olympic gold medal like Kirani.