I agree with you there about VOSA, it will be absolutely pointless trying to call them out,they simply will not attend. The Police will however providing that they suspect that the vehicle is uninsured for purpose. I don't dispute either that a driver without a vocational licence is of no interest to the TC; he will be however to the Police, as will a PCV licence holder to the TC in such circumstances.

While a legitimate operator can insure his vehicle for hire and reward work for one day at a time only, while excluding that cover for the rest of the year, anyone not entitled to undertake H&R may be able to do so as well but that cover would be invalid.

I am sure that given the time to reseach it, it would be possible to come up with the exact clause and subsection of whatever act is relevant to the offence. Being able to quote that over the phone to the Police should elicit a response more easily.

Jack Made two points .

I think he is right that there is an opportunity for proper business to capitalise sensibly on this.

The following is anecdotal, but recent and is from the horse's mouth !

At a crisis meeting of the local Allotment Association who had seen it's Trading Hut sales fall massively, it was revealed that a former member was selling compost substantially below the discounted bulk order cost price.

This meant compost sales had collapsed and without a bulk purchase, prices had to rise causing a further collapse.
This is a core product for the trading hut.

I asked a bit more and found that said seller was selling the compost in open bags.

Next question I asked was if all the Trading huts products were certificated and warrantied?

Yes, was the answer.

So I produced new posters advertising the Trading Hut prominently displaying that "All our Composts and Manures are fully Certificated and Safe for use on Public Allotments and Gardens."

Just 8 weeks later and sales have shot up by 178% and exceeded last years sales.

By sowing the seed of doubt amongst the customers and without pointing fingers at anyone, we have let them think about it and it has worked. People don't like to take risks especially if it might affect others.

The same could be said of Rogue operators, use them in the same way. Let the customer see what you are covered for and let them know what they should ask when getting quotes.

But also the operating of a hire business is too complicated and could do with simplifying without compromising all round safety and standards. Certainly the bodies that oversee should be able to award a quality standard in the same way the food standards agency does for Take Aways and restaurants.
And it is not right that VoSA can nit pick on a legitmate business but shy away from a rogue or chancer operation simply because they are off radar.

That way it could be a bit easier for really good vehicles in preservation to be hired in and operated using a simplified Class 6 and transferable digital Tacho. Thus giving an owner a chance to supplement the ever increasing cost of preservation (storage alone).

We are not far off autonomous HGVs, so surely this can be simplified without being costly or compromising safety?

What exactly is going to be left out of a simplified class 6 test?

How do you transfer a digital tachograph from one vehicle to another when it needs to be calibrated to a specific vehicle?

It is easy enough as it is to hire in another vehicle if the operator has sufficient margin on his O licnece and enough discs available. He just needs a Class 6 tested and taxed vehicle which has not claimed an exemption from tacho fitment and which is within tacho calibration dates etc.

He affixes one of his discs and a prominent notice that it is on hire to his company. He adds the registration number to the list of his insured vehicles, if that is what is required by his insurers and if he is wise he runs it through his workshop for a safety inspection. Everything to do with the driver and crew becomes the legal responsibility of the operator.

The owner would receive a vehicle hire fee, say £150 or whatever the going rate is and the operator keeps the rest of the PH revenue.

The idea is that the public are carried in a safe and proper manner; not that Fred is able to supplement the ever increasing costs of preservation.

If Fred wants to do that then he should apply for an Operator's licence.

I think what Mark means is that the UK and much of the EU are way behind on Tachograph and driver/vehicle recording technology.

There are now low cost devices surfacing that with minimal mods and at very low cost that can be transferred from vehicle to vehicle but automatically keeps the data of each vehicle and driver. The ones we have trialled at ND are very simple, require very basic installation, not the mass of sensors and wiring upheaval that is currently needed.

It can sense minute movements and knows when a vehicle is doing 41 kph in a 40 kph zone. Can sense braking force, pitch and roll, even bad road surfaces.

Each vehicle is fitted with a concealed and sealed data transponder and it logs in with the tacho only part of which is secured permanently to the vehicle. It locks with a code sent by the operating base so can't be removed.
Very clever and quite cheap. We've used it on New & older Trucks and even fork lift and Dock trucks so far. Another type is coming for evaluation soon.

The idea is that calibration will take place when the vehicle is tested and certificated. Or on a rolling road or road test. So each transponder only will be exactly for that vehicle. Correct me if I am wrong as my experience of this applies to vehicles less than 10 years old but there are exemptions for vehicles with no electronic sensors as OE. ?

It's useful for our reserve fleets and for those more specialised tractors that sometimes move from location to location but not so much for the everyday fleet.

But also many buses in preservation do have Tachos fitted and would easily pass a class 6. But it is not viable if only for handful of days per year.

I think that's what Mark is getting at. Being easy for a preserved vehicle to get a class 6 if needs be and it meets the criteria.

It is actually quite easy to get a class 6 test on a preserved bus, you just book it with your local authorised testing facility, ATF. Cost is about £180 though. However, on the pre-1960 buses as we know they are exempt from annual testing, regardless of use.

Even getting n operators licence isn't rocket science. You fill in the forms and apply to the traffic commissioner for your area. However, the expensive bits are having the required deposit per O disc, in the region of £7500 for the first and £4500 for subsequent licences. H&R insurance as roy says can be done on a daily basis, typically about £45 a day. The expensive bit is getting a transport manager! They usually want a vast fortune even if you only run the bus for 10-15 days a year.

I presume what you were getting at regarding tachos is the use of the various telematics/tracking devices that are now available. do they actually record who is driving at a particular time? I recently bought a couple of new/recon tacho heads for a sensible price, but then it cost over £180 to get them tested before fitting them! It certainly is expensive doing things right, so it's understandable why some choose to break the law.

This is ok until something goes wrong, which one day sooner or later it will happen. Remember not so long ago an RM loaded with passengers came off the road in Ulster. there was a lot of discussion hoping it wasn't caused by a vehicle fault such as brake or steering failure. It was caused by something running out in front of the bus and the driver swerving or something along those lines, so we all breathed a sigh of relief.

Another pre-requisite of getting a class 6 test on your bus is that it requires a Certificate of Initial Fitness (COIF). This is also expensive if your bus wasn't in service on the day the COIF scheme came into force, some time in the early 1980s. Roger Stagg at the London Bus Museum is currently in negotiations with VOSA to clarify this position regarding buses that weren't in service on that date as there does not appear to be anything in statute law that allowed the tens of thousands that were in service on that date to automatically be issued with one. I await the outcome of those discussions, but that is a separate subject, and it is one that I outlined on the FB RT Appreciation group a couple of months ago.

Back to the OP, on my business website I clearly state that the company is a properly licenced operator and give the link to the VOSA Operator Search website which will confirm that; there is also our membership number for the Confederation of Passenger Transport (the bus industry trade body). When anyone asks me if I can beat Fred's price I tell them to ask Fred for his PK number (that is the number of his operator licence number if he's in the south east). If he can't give you one, he is operating illegally and no I can't beat his price.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

I too have had experiences of a preserved Routemaster operating in my area but I did find out who the owner was and the number of the bus so I made contact and threatened to report him - unfortunately this has not stopped him.

Personally I welcome any competition providing we are all playing on a level playing field - those operating illegally are not fair competition.

I have a very good friend who is a police sergeant working for Cheshire Police traffic division and he has told me that they generally do not get involved in stopping such vehicles as they cannot tell what type of insurance or tax a vehicle has with their ANPR equipment. Apparently all this does is check if the vehicle is taxed and insured, it doesn't give them specific details of what type of insurance or tax a vehicle has, so the chances of an illegal operator getting pulled by the Police is very slim.

VOSA did have an on-line form to fill in where you could report rogue operators, but since they merged and became DVSA this facility seems to have been removed from their new website.

My friendly Police Officer has now put a mark on the vehicle in question so the next time its picked up by a Police ANPR camera it will get stopped, hopefully this will happen when it's full of passengers going to a Wedding!!

So my advice to fellow operators is find out the bus registration number, phone the non-emergency Police number on 101 and ask to talk to your local traffic division and report them.

David

My bus number (if any): RM's 446, 548, 765 and 1783

The way it should be done. Presumably historics are then auctioned off?

The times I have been approached when out with my RT or RM and asked if I'd do a wedding or party. Of course I decline, but then have to spend the next 10 minutes explaining why I cannot do it. Easy to see why some unscrupulous private owners just 'go for it'.

Can the police also stop the idiot cyclists who ride on the footpath and are a danger to pedestrians? I'd imagine a pile of bikes going through the crusher would sound good too.

John.

My bus number (if any): RaTtletrap RT

I haven't hears of any historic buses being seized yet, but I know of a few where the owners have had the VOSA warning letters.

My bus number (if any): RML2532

'Proceeds of Crime auction' is what they are called, you can get some great bargins at them if you are looking for a sporty car or high end goods!

But the seizing authority have to apply to a court to sell the goods at Proceeds of Crime hearing first, or will be disposed of.

The only issue is the ones that are openly advertised tend to be in Scotland. Then when they are advertised they are usually at short notice and you have to go to the auction house on the day to find out what is up for grabs because if they displayed what was up on the internet it is likely criminals will break in to steal their goods back.

As for the smaller lower value goods they tend to end up on Ebay under the police forces account!

All the money raised goes to the treasury but the seizing authority can put a claim in for the money to make use off but most police forces then redistribute it to local charities related to cutting crime or keeping kids busy and out of trouble.

My bus number (if any): RMF2771